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	<title>Comments on: The trade value post</title>
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	<description>Seattle Mariners and general baseball discussion with David Cameron and Derek Zumsteg</description>
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		<title>By: insidetheparker</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/06/28/the-trade-value-post/comment-page-2/#comment-342449</link>
		<dc:creator>insidetheparker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 19:48:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5420#comment-342449</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mynorthwest.com/streams/streampop_espn.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.mynorthwest.com/streams/streampop_espn.php" rel="nofollow">here</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Nye</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/06/28/the-trade-value-post/comment-page-2/#comment-286750</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Nye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:41:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5420#comment-286750</guid>
		<description>Neither of those trades is realistic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neither of those trades is realistic.</p>
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		<title>By: stoyboy</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/06/28/the-trade-value-post/comment-page-2/#comment-286749</link>
		<dc:creator>stoyboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:39:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5420#comment-286749</guid>
		<description>Trade value for value: (1 Mariner&#039;s trade Beltre for Dodger&#039;s Loney and Ethier; (2 Mariner&#039;s trade Bedard for Cub&#039;s Gallagher and Murton.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trade value for value: (1 Mariner&#8217;s trade Beltre for Dodger&#8217;s Loney and Ethier; (2 Mariner&#8217;s trade Bedard for Cub&#8217;s Gallagher and Murton.</p>
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		<title>By: BaltimoreDave</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/06/28/the-trade-value-post/comment-page-2/#comment-286480</link>
		<dc:creator>BaltimoreDave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:02:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5420#comment-286480</guid>
		<description>Wow - that Rays trade would be a steal and a half. It&#039;s a fanciful idea, I can&#039;t imagine they&#039;d offer anything close. Hell, Longoria alone would be a great return.

But the broader idea that a Felix trade is our shortest path to an injection of top-shelf talent is true and should be explored by the new regime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow &#8211; that Rays trade would be a steal and a half. It&#8217;s a fanciful idea, I can&#8217;t imagine they&#8217;d offer anything close. Hell, Longoria alone would be a great return.</p>
<p>But the broader idea that a Felix trade is our shortest path to an injection of top-shelf talent is true and should be explored by the new regime.</p>
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		<title>By: mymrbig</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/06/28/the-trade-value-post/comment-page-2/#comment-286474</link>
		<dc:creator>mymrbig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 04:04:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5420#comment-286474</guid>
		<description>Ichiro - I can&#039;t imagine ownership agreeing to trade him.  He&#039;s the face of the franchise, for better or for worse.  I don&#039;t think he&#039;s declining at all, but I just don&#039;t think they&#039;d ever move him.  That&#039;s why I forgot him the first time!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ichiro &#8211; I can&#8217;t imagine ownership agreeing to trade him.  He&#8217;s the face of the franchise, for better or for worse.  I don&#8217;t think he&#8217;s declining at all, but I just don&#8217;t think they&#8217;d ever move him.  That&#8217;s why I forgot him the first time!</p>
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		<title>By: mymrbig</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/06/28/the-trade-value-post/comment-page-2/#comment-286472</link>
		<dc:creator>mymrbig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 03:59:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5420#comment-286472</guid>
		<description>Ibanez - the M&#039;s should definitely move him for even any decent prospect.  Here&#039;s the problem as I see it.  He&#039;ll probably earn Type A status this offseason, meaning the Mariners could get decent draft picks if they hold him and then offer him arbitration, but he signs elsewhere.  Problem is that arbitration might be the best offer he gets since he&#039;s a solid-but-not-great player who is getting up there in age (37 next year) and has negative defensive value.  So the M&#039;s would honestly be foolish to offer him arbitration unless he&#039;s already signed with someone else because they&#039;d just end up as a rebuilding team with an aging, overpaid vet.  So given the alternative, I think they need to trade him for any prospect they can get.  Better something than nothing, and someone should offer something, right?!?  Rays probably aren&#039;t interested, their priority is a guy who hits right-handed and can play right field.  Maybe the Braves if their internal options keep failing?  A fallen prospect like Brent Lillibridge would be great, but the M&#039;s would probably have to settle for someone less.  Maybe the D&#039;Backs if Byrnes keeps struggling or ends up back on the DL.  They have some interesting prospects.  I could see Oakland having some interest, but both teams would have to get over the idea of trading intra-division.

Bedard - I think the M&#039;s gave up way too much for him.  At the same time, I think he still has pretty decent value (especially if he strings together a few more good, healthy starts).  There are tons of potential suitors out there.  I&#039;d love to see the Rays get involved, but seems like they would be better suited going for a rightfielder with plenty of pitching prospects that might help.  My perfect scenario would be Bedard for Hellickson, Niemann, and Sonnastine.  Then they could have Price replace Jackson at some point and would have an unbelievable rotation through 2009 (Kazmir, Shields, Bedard, Garza, Price).  Another ideal scenario would be if the Brewers and Cubs got into a bidding war.  I don&#039;t really like what the Cubs have to offer, though getting Rich Hill (and praying he either finds his control or can hit like Ankiel), Murton (ML-average outfielder who is dirt cheap), and a few prospects (Vitters, Ceda, and a few others) might end up being the best offer.  Still, it would be great to see the Brewers get heavily involved in talks for Bedard.  I would ask for Laporta, Jeffress, and a 3rd prospect, knowing the M&#039;s would probably have to settle for Laporta or Jeffress, then 2 other prospects.  Jeffress, Gamels, and a 3rd good prospect would be a very nice return.  Phillies don&#039;t have a strong farm system, but something starting with Carrasco and/or Adrian Cardenas would be very interesting (this would almost amount to emptying out their system).  Braves could also be an interesting trade partner, but I don&#039;t know if they have the budget flexibility for Bedard.  Really, what team can&#039;t use an elite pitcher in a playoff run?

Felix - same story as Bedard, only the price is much higher.  My problem trading Felix isn&#039;t some deep-rooted emotional attachment.  I just think he could bring the same return at next year&#039;s trade deadline.  So if my long-term plan is to trade him, I wait another year and maybe even hope he agrees to a team-friendly long-term contract (or at least through his arbitration years) that makes him even more marketable.  He&#039;ll even have the same value this offseason.  So unless the M&#039;s were absolutely blown over with an offer, they should hold him up to another year.

Beltre - I agree 100% with the DMZ&#039;s sentiments on Beltre&#039;s value.  One thing I think can make Beltre more appealing to other teams.  Beltre 2008 at home: .222/.291/.417.  2008 on road: .274/.353/.459.  2005-07 at home: .259/.314/.425.  2005-07 on road: .273/.320/.479.  Safeco pretty clearly holds back his power numbers and an acquiring team can expect an improvement.  The main problem is that not many teams need a starting 3rd baseman right now.  The Dodgers seem like the best fit (Laroche has battled injuries and still hasn&#039;t really hit in the majors, Nomar has devolved into a punchline, and Dewitt doesn&#039;t seem quite ready).  I&#039;d love to see a Beltre-for-Laroche trade (maybe even with a 2nd, lesser prospect included).  Minnesota would be another obvious target since Lamb has been brutal, but the Twins have been historically frugal so its unclear whether they would take a fairly big contract.  They do have a lot of interesting pitching prospects.  The Astros have a horrible farm system, but they might want an upgrade over Wigginton if they laughably fancy themselves as buyers.  Milwaukee maybe, but Branyan would have to cool down first.

Washburn - I honestly think it would be pretty easy to move him.  Plenty of the teams mentioned earlier will either miss out on the elite pitchers, will not have the prospects, will not have the budget space, or will not want to give up the necessary prospects.  Washburn will be an OK fall-back for some team.  I might even look to make a move well before the deadline if the M&#039;s just view him as a salary dump, as this would keep more teams in play that may fall out of the race in the next month (Astros for example).  Looking at his underlying stats, Washburn is the same guy he&#039;s always been (K/9, BB/9, GB% all in line with career norms).  His BABIP is .334 this year, but .283 career.  Just a little bad luck that seems to be regressing to the mean lately.

Betancourt - freaky stat of the day is that Yuniesky has managed to lower his BB% and K% each year since he debuted in 2005.  His LD% has also increased every year, so its  a little surprising his AVG hasn&#039;t moved upward more.  His OBP around .300 will always limit his usefulness.  I&#039;m not particularly gifted in the use of defensive measurements, but if his defense has indeed cratered, then now would be the ideal time to move him.  Hopefully someone would look at his reputation more than recent results defensively, and will think he&#039;s a cheap, glove-minded SS.  Even then, I can&#039;t see any team giving up anything significant for him.  Best case (for the M&#039;s) is that someone loses their SS to an injury.

Lopez - AVG/OBP/SLG are all at career highs.  Not by much, but still.  Problem is that no one really needs a 2nd baseman that much.  Maybe the Mets, but waiting to see if anyone gets injured is probably the best course.  He&#039;s not a guy to dump or build around, so really the team can keep him until they get a good offer or have a better internal option.

Batista - At best, the M&#039;s could probably hope to eat a few million bucks of his contract and dump the rest.

Silva - have to eat millions and millions of dollars to move him.  Better bet is to hold and hope for a miracle turnaround next year (and promptly trade him for anything or anyone).

Sexson/Vidro/Johjima - wish I could disagree with DMZ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ibanez &#8211; the M&#8217;s should definitely move him for even any decent prospect.  Here&#8217;s the problem as I see it.  He&#8217;ll probably earn Type A status this offseason, meaning the Mariners could get decent draft picks if they hold him and then offer him arbitration, but he signs elsewhere.  Problem is that arbitration might be the best offer he gets since he&#8217;s a solid-but-not-great player who is getting up there in age (37 next year) and has negative defensive value.  So the M&#8217;s would honestly be foolish to offer him arbitration unless he&#8217;s already signed with someone else because they&#8217;d just end up as a rebuilding team with an aging, overpaid vet.  So given the alternative, I think they need to trade him for any prospect they can get.  Better something than nothing, and someone should offer something, right?!?  Rays probably aren&#8217;t interested, their priority is a guy who hits right-handed and can play right field.  Maybe the Braves if their internal options keep failing?  A fallen prospect like Brent Lillibridge would be great, but the M&#8217;s would probably have to settle for someone less.  Maybe the D&#8217;Backs if Byrnes keeps struggling or ends up back on the DL.  They have some interesting prospects.  I could see Oakland having some interest, but both teams would have to get over the idea of trading intra-division.</p>
<p>Bedard &#8211; I think the M&#8217;s gave up way too much for him.  At the same time, I think he still has pretty decent value (especially if he strings together a few more good, healthy starts).  There are tons of potential suitors out there.  I&#8217;d love to see the Rays get involved, but seems like they would be better suited going for a rightfielder with plenty of pitching prospects that might help.  My perfect scenario would be Bedard for Hellickson, Niemann, and Sonnastine.  Then they could have Price replace Jackson at some point and would have an unbelievable rotation through 2009 (Kazmir, Shields, Bedard, Garza, Price).  Another ideal scenario would be if the Brewers and Cubs got into a bidding war.  I don&#8217;t really like what the Cubs have to offer, though getting Rich Hill (and praying he either finds his control or can hit like Ankiel), Murton (ML-average outfielder who is dirt cheap), and a few prospects (Vitters, Ceda, and a few others) might end up being the best offer.  Still, it would be great to see the Brewers get heavily involved in talks for Bedard.  I would ask for Laporta, Jeffress, and a 3rd prospect, knowing the M&#8217;s would probably have to settle for Laporta or Jeffress, then 2 other prospects.  Jeffress, Gamels, and a 3rd good prospect would be a very nice return.  Phillies don&#8217;t have a strong farm system, but something starting with Carrasco and/or Adrian Cardenas would be very interesting (this would almost amount to emptying out their system).  Braves could also be an interesting trade partner, but I don&#8217;t know if they have the budget flexibility for Bedard.  Really, what team can&#8217;t use an elite pitcher in a playoff run?</p>
<p>Felix &#8211; same story as Bedard, only the price is much higher.  My problem trading Felix isn&#8217;t some deep-rooted emotional attachment.  I just think he could bring the same return at next year&#8217;s trade deadline.  So if my long-term plan is to trade him, I wait another year and maybe even hope he agrees to a team-friendly long-term contract (or at least through his arbitration years) that makes him even more marketable.  He&#8217;ll even have the same value this offseason.  So unless the M&#8217;s were absolutely blown over with an offer, they should hold him up to another year.</p>
<p>Beltre &#8211; I agree 100% with the DMZ&#8217;s sentiments on Beltre&#8217;s value.  One thing I think can make Beltre more appealing to other teams.  Beltre 2008 at home: .222/.291/.417.  2008 on road: .274/.353/.459.  2005-07 at home: .259/.314/.425.  2005-07 on road: .273/.320/.479.  Safeco pretty clearly holds back his power numbers and an acquiring team can expect an improvement.  The main problem is that not many teams need a starting 3rd baseman right now.  The Dodgers seem like the best fit (Laroche has battled injuries and still hasn&#8217;t really hit in the majors, Nomar has devolved into a punchline, and Dewitt doesn&#8217;t seem quite ready).  I&#8217;d love to see a Beltre-for-Laroche trade (maybe even with a 2nd, lesser prospect included).  Minnesota would be another obvious target since Lamb has been brutal, but the Twins have been historically frugal so its unclear whether they would take a fairly big contract.  They do have a lot of interesting pitching prospects.  The Astros have a horrible farm system, but they might want an upgrade over Wigginton if they laughably fancy themselves as buyers.  Milwaukee maybe, but Branyan would have to cool down first.</p>
<p>Washburn &#8211; I honestly think it would be pretty easy to move him.  Plenty of the teams mentioned earlier will either miss out on the elite pitchers, will not have the prospects, will not have the budget space, or will not want to give up the necessary prospects.  Washburn will be an OK fall-back for some team.  I might even look to make a move well before the deadline if the M&#8217;s just view him as a salary dump, as this would keep more teams in play that may fall out of the race in the next month (Astros for example).  Looking at his underlying stats, Washburn is the same guy he&#8217;s always been (K/9, BB/9, GB% all in line with career norms).  His BABIP is .334 this year, but .283 career.  Just a little bad luck that seems to be regressing to the mean lately.</p>
<p>Betancourt &#8211; freaky stat of the day is that Yuniesky has managed to lower his BB% and K% each year since he debuted in 2005.  His LD% has also increased every year, so its  a little surprising his AVG hasn&#8217;t moved upward more.  His OBP around .300 will always limit his usefulness.  I&#8217;m not particularly gifted in the use of defensive measurements, but if his defense has indeed cratered, then now would be the ideal time to move him.  Hopefully someone would look at his reputation more than recent results defensively, and will think he&#8217;s a cheap, glove-minded SS.  Even then, I can&#8217;t see any team giving up anything significant for him.  Best case (for the M&#8217;s) is that someone loses their SS to an injury.</p>
<p>Lopez &#8211; AVG/OBP/SLG are all at career highs.  Not by much, but still.  Problem is that no one really needs a 2nd baseman that much.  Maybe the Mets, but waiting to see if anyone gets injured is probably the best course.  He&#8217;s not a guy to dump or build around, so really the team can keep him until they get a good offer or have a better internal option.</p>
<p>Batista &#8211; At best, the M&#8217;s could probably hope to eat a few million bucks of his contract and dump the rest.</p>
<p>Silva &#8211; have to eat millions and millions of dollars to move him.  Better bet is to hold and hope for a miracle turnaround next year (and promptly trade him for anything or anyone).</p>
<p>Sexson/Vidro/Johjima &#8211; wish I could disagree with DMZ.</p>
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		<title>By: The Unkown Comic</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/06/28/the-trade-value-post/comment-page-2/#comment-286463</link>
		<dc:creator>The Unkown Comic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 01:25:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5420#comment-286463</guid>
		<description>The Mariners have worn me out and drained me of any irrational sentimental attachment to individual players and I now view individual players like a stock that you trade and when you have made a bunch of money on them you kick them to the curb and move on to a better stock without remorse or lingering attachment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Mariners have worn me out and drained me of any irrational sentimental attachment to individual players and I now view individual players like a stock that you trade and when you have made a bunch of money on them you kick them to the curb and move on to a better stock without remorse or lingering attachment.</p>
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		<title>By: beckya57</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/06/28/the-trade-value-post/comment-page-2/#comment-286390</link>
		<dc:creator>beckya57</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5420#comment-286390</guid>
		<description>Re my lack of sentimentality re Ichiro and Felix: I&#039;m a baseball fan.  I want to see good baseball played by a winning team.  I like getting attached to certain players as much as anyone else (I totally loved Edgar), but what I really care about is good baseball and winning.  If trading Ichiro or Felix helps this team become more of a winner, I&#039;m for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re my lack of sentimentality re Ichiro and Felix: I&#8217;m a baseball fan.  I want to see good baseball played by a winning team.  I like getting attached to certain players as much as anyone else (I totally loved Edgar), but what I really care about is good baseball and winning.  If trading Ichiro or Felix helps this team become more of a winner, I&#8217;m for it.</p>
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		<title>By: beckya57</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/06/28/the-trade-value-post/comment-page-2/#comment-286385</link>
		<dc:creator>beckya57</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:31:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5420#comment-286385</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m totally for trading Bedard, BTW.  I never liked that trade (to get him here) to begin with, largely because he&#039;s so injury-prone, and also because the M&#039;s were never a realistic playoff team this year.  Teams that are looking at the playoffs, however, always want more starting pitching, and the M&#039;s could potentially get a good deal for him (though my caveats about this FO&#039;s lack of smarts still apply).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m totally for trading Bedard, BTW.  I never liked that trade (to get him here) to begin with, largely because he&#8217;s so injury-prone, and also because the M&#8217;s were never a realistic playoff team this year.  Teams that are looking at the playoffs, however, always want more starting pitching, and the M&#8217;s could potentially get a good deal for him (though my caveats about this FO&#8217;s lack of smarts still apply).</p>
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		<title>By: beckya57</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/06/28/the-trade-value-post/comment-page-2/#comment-286379</link>
		<dc:creator>beckya57</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:07:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5420#comment-286379</guid>
		<description>Frankly, I think this is a good time to trade Ichiro.  His skills are heading downhill, but he still has marquee value.  It&#039;s an obvious move for a team that desperately needs to rebuild.

I share your concerns about Felix, but really.  Do you think this FO would make the right trade, the one that justifies giving up an exceptional talent?  I think they&#039;d be much more likely to go for a bunch of &quot;proven veterans&quot; that they would delude themselves into believing would allow them to contend next year.  I&#039;d be for it with a competent FO, but am dubious with this bunch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frankly, I think this is a good time to trade Ichiro.  His skills are heading downhill, but he still has marquee value.  It&#8217;s an obvious move for a team that desperately needs to rebuild.</p>
<p>I share your concerns about Felix, but really.  Do you think this FO would make the right trade, the one that justifies giving up an exceptional talent?  I think they&#8217;d be much more likely to go for a bunch of &#8220;proven veterans&#8221; that they would delude themselves into believing would allow them to contend next year.  I&#8217;d be for it with a competent FO, but am dubious with this bunch.</p>
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