-
Vote for Dave
Act now! Your vote helps Dave on his quest for a economics degree. You support education, right? Click this:
-
Buy the book
The Cheater's Guide to Baseball
"Derek Zumsteg should be ashamed to have such comprehensive knowledge of the history of cheating in baseball. Pete Rose gave me two to one odds this book would become a classic." -- Allen Barra, author of The Last Coach: A Life of Paul "Bear" Bryant
Silva And Riggleman
In case you missed it, there was a decent amount of off the field stuff happening this weekend.
After losing again on Friday night, Carlos Silva went off on his teammates, claiming “maybe half of the team wants to do the best they can” and threatening to “grab somebody by his neck and throw him into the wall”. There’s about a 0% chance that “somebody” in that quote isn’t Yuniesky Betancourt, who air mailed a throw into the dugout that cost Silva a couple of runs. Silva went on to talk about how the starting pitchers all care and are trying the best they can, but that the rest of the team is letting Silva down.
Now, let’s put aside the fact that Carlos Silva is the biggest sinkhole on the roster right now - a $48 million mistake that will haunt this franchise for years. Ignore the fact that the team had played well in the games leading up to Silva’s rant, taking two out of three from first place Minnesota and beating the first place Rays the night before. Put all that to the side, and let’s focus on Carlos Silva’s supposed leadership skills, since you know, he calls himself Chief and all that.
Leaders motivate men to follow their example - Silva fails miserably at his job and blames others.
Leaders protect the inexperienced from attacks - Silva takes veiled shots at others through the media.
Leaders inspire and encourage others to action - Silva threatens physical violence.
Carlos Silva’s idea of leadership is to tell others about how poorly his teammates are doing. Even if he’s correct, his way of handling the situation is anti-leadership. It isn’t keeping the team accountable - it’s making himself more likable to the press and ensuring himself better coverage from those who write about the game and eat that stuff up.
Now, you can think I’m some blowhard who doesn’t know what a baseball clubhouse is like, but don’t take my word for any of this. Here’s Jim Riggleman’s response:
“When I hear someone say something about selfish play, I always just say, You know what, I challenge anybody to go in there and look at the tape of every game from March 31 to the present time and show me an example of somebody being selfish, and I’d stand corrected if you could point it out. But if you’re saying somebody’s selfish, I’ve got to hear some specifics.
“More importantly, he shouldn’t say it to the writers. He should say it to me, he should say it to teammates he’s directing it at. The one thing he was talking about, not using ground balls to move the runner, we’ve done a great job of that. But again, anytime you’re not successful at doing that, it’s the intent that you have to question. And I know the intention has always been to do that, but sometimes you don’t get the result. I know guys have always tried to do that, and sometimes you’re not successful doing it. You don’t intend to give up base hits and walks, but you give them up.
“It’s just the wrong way to send a message. You don’t do that in the paper; you do that internally.
“I admire him more for doing it when he’s 4-13, to tell you the truth. If you’re 13-4 and you’re saying stuff, it’s kind of like, ‘I’m going good so I can say anything I want.’ At least he’s speaking his mind when he’s struggling, so I admire him for that, but again, whether it’s when you’re struggling or when you’re going good, you just don’t do it publicly.
“The stuff that was said, to me (it) was so convoluted that I don’t know who he’s directing it at, I really don’t. If he had spoke to me, I would know who he was directing it at, because I would say, What are you talking about. But until you give a specific example…
“I’m gonna talk to him and a couple other guys. And he’s used the phrase, ‘the starting pitchers,’ like ‘we as the starting pitchers, we’re focused, but some other people aren’t or something.’ That’s ridiculous.
“One of the things that happens is there’s a lot of cliches in the game, and every team that I’ve ever seen that struggled, people will say they don’t do the fundamentals, they don’t bunt runners, they’re not hitting behind the runner to move runners over, they don’t do this, they don’t do that. You hear enough of that, and you look at the numbers, and you find out you’re right there where everybody else in baseball is in sacrifice bunts, advancing runners, and the fundamentals of the game.
“It’s almost like these blanket statements are made, and the perceptions are because you’re losing, you’re doing these things wrong. What it really comes to is we, like most teams, we take care of the little things. It’s big things. We’re not hitting good enough and we’re not pitching good enough. If somebody wants to hide behind, ‘Oh, we made a baserunner mistake or we didn’t move a runner over,’ … and use the word selfish, you can try to act like, ‘That’s the problem right there. That will make up those 30 games.’ But, you know, you’ve got to hit better and you’ve got to pitch better.
“When you’ve got something to say, don’t use the newspaper to say it.”
To paraphrase - Carlos, shut up and pitch better. Kudos to Riggleman for not letting Carlos Silva pass off his lame brand of leadership as something that actually helps a club win. This team has been far too willing to throw each other under the bus this year, and it’s about time a manager stepped up and told his entitled veteran that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
None of this is to say that there aren’t players on this team with work ethic issues (we’ve noted Betancourt’s huge regression and Lopez’s defensive lapses many times here on the blog, so these issues aren’t being ignored), but regardless of what anyone in the media might think, the crap Silva pulled on Friday night doesn’t help the Mariners. There are real ways for leaders to step in and see if they can help the underperformers on the roster to work harder - if Carlos Silva wants to try any of those forms of leadership, he can feel free.
Until then, let’s just ignore the massively overpaid and out of shape #5 starter with a big mouth and hope to God this organization learns that being loud is not the same thing as being a leader.
Comments
-
USSM uses and recommends
My respect for Riggleman just shot way up. First, he exhibited the kind of leadership we haven’t seen from an M’s manager in years. Second, he cut right through all the false reasons for losing that the press likes to talk about - team chemistry, “little things”, etc. - and got straight to the fact the M’s aren’t very good. Period. Which is something I’m not sure Bavasi ever realized. Armstrong and Lincoln still might not realize it.
I also am impressed with Riggles here. Not enough to endorse him to continue, but still, this is better managing than I’ve felt we had for a long time.
Maybe if I mailed Carlos a bunch of double double from In n Out he would have a have his mouth too ful to talk. And the grease might let his pitches get around bats instead of heading straight for them.
Anyone who holds the starting pitching of this team up as the model of leadership and work ethic should be put in a stockade right outside the home plate gate. Do they make stockades with a Silva-sized neck hole?
A while back I said I was sick of listening to Riggleman because he insulted the fans with his tired cliches. But he regained some respect from me with his response to Silva. I actually thought he did a fanstastic job of casually putting Silva in his place - I loved the “I admire him more for doing it when he’s 4-13, to tell you the truth…” bit. However, I still have my reservations - Riggleman has been a part of the coaching staff all season. It’s awfully late to be fixing the clubhouse chaos.
More evidence that the M’s huge effort to build chemistry blew up in their face.
This may be the first quote from a management type that I’ve 100% agreed with in quite a while. You’re doing a heck of a job there, Riggy! On the other hand, if Riggleman did, in fact, pull Lopez from the game yesterday for his fielding blunder, I’ll have to accuse him of focusing his ire in the wrong place. He needs to yank Betancourt for his approach at the plate.
Counting down to the “It’s Ichiro’s lack of leadership that is the real problem” in 3…2…1….
Silva = laff riot.
Go Riggs!
I was also impressed by Riggleman’s response, in yesterday’s post-game press conference, to the Lopez incident (which I assume we’ll be hearing about on USSM shortly?). By refusing to answer the question, he was practicing what he preaches–handling stuff internally rather than through the media. At the same time, he was respectful to writer who asked the question. Points for Riggles there too.
Here’s Larry Stone’s blog on this little to-do from yesterday: http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mariners/index.html#31011
I think ANY effort to “build chemistry” will blow up in your face. Chemistry isn’t something you build with because it’s so unpredictable beforehand.
Amen, and let me add to the chorus in praise of Riggleman. It’s nice to know he has it in him.
There is no way that you can show leadership while you refer to yourself in the third person using your shelf-chosen nickname, “Chief”. Riggleman should remove him from the rotation for that alone.
Wait…he’s criticizing Yuniesky BuntIcan’t? Halt thy tongue, Carlos!
You know, I read Silva’s quote and I thought to myself that, though there are times for discretion, there are also times for “f*** Dave Samson” quotes. Riggs figured out that this was one of the latter. I understand that you’re not supposed to mention players by name in conversation the media (for some stupid reason it’s okay to lightly veil your criticisms, but heaven forbid we say the guy’s name), but Silva’s had it coming for a long time.
I think this sets up an interesting conundrum for the FO that’s been so willing to remove “clubhouse cancers” (Carlos Guillen, etc.) even if it’s not in the best interest of the team. Now, we’ve got a pitcher who sucks and he flaps his yap too much, but we’re on the hook for a bajillion dollars to him over the next three years. Do we keep the crappy underperformer and malcontent around because we don’t understand the concept of sunk costs, or what? Chances of Silva being given away this winter? Anyone?
0% chance that Silva is given away.
I’m glad you addressed this, Dave. I thought Riggleman’s response to Silva’s hissy fit was very impressive - particularly those last two paragraphs of quotes you have up.
I still wouldn’t endorse him for an extension, but I have enough respect for him now that I wouldn’t be heartbroken if they gave him one. I have a feeling that any manager they end up with is going to be old-school and at least slightly inept, so it’s nice to at least have one who calls out the veterans when they’re acting like babies, and cuts through some of the bullsh**t perceptions in the press.
You know, for all the talk after McLaren was fired about how he was dealt a bum hand and should get another shot as a manager somewhere, despite his atrocious record, I think it’s far more applicable to Riggleman. He’s not without flaws, but I’d say he’s the first manager we’ve had since Melvin who’s not actively detrimental overall. I don’t think I want him to still be managing here next year, but he’d be a respectable choice for someone.
I can’t believe Chief went into the third person. That’s only reserved for boxers.
You know chief is an anagram for “I chef.” Hmmm.
Didn’t we already have a “Chief”?
Oh, hi!
Sorry Silva. The only thing you’re the “Chief” of is throwing meatballs. Big, juicy, delicious meatballs.
I can’t believe Chief went into the third person. That’s only reserved for boxers.
and Rickey Henderson
Shockingly, Geoff Baker is totally supportive of Silva and his media-friendly antics.
I’m just stunned.
Didn’t we already have a “Chief”?
Even coming off shoulder surgery, he may still be a better pitcher than Silva.
Kudos to Riggleman for taking coming out and saying that.
Silva isn’t being a leader. He’s doing all the things he’s accusing other people of. Like being selfish. Or not being accountable for your screw-ups.
Carlos Silva, you are the biggest A-hole in major league baseball right now.
Not to pile on Baker, but this little nugget….
…tells you everything you need to know about the Mariners’ clubhouse. The veteran entitlement and “good ol’ boys” attitude permeating this club is extremely discouraging.
I guess I’m puzzled as to what Silva has accomplished in his career that Felix hasn’t. Give up 130 runs in a season? Get blown out in the only playoff start of his career?
I agree with Baker. I don’t read what he wrote as unqualified support for Silva but as a simple acknowlegement of what he said. You guys decide, or more often let the authors tell you, who you like or don’t like and measure your responses to match.
The fact is that this team plays crappy baseball. Sometimes they look like daisy-pickers on a little league team. Silva said so and now, because he’s Carlos Silva, you want to ignore all that and disregard the message. Silva talks about hitting guys over and Riggleman responds that they’re “great” at that. Really. I don’t think they are great at anything.
Was Silva wrong under the “unwritten” rules of baseball? Yup, he probably was. He gets to deal with his teammates about that. It doesn’t change one single thing that he said being true.
Baker is also right about accountability. This team, from the top down, has no committment to actually winning. They cultivate mediocrity and can’t even reach that pathetic level. If the team’s embarrassed by what Silva said then good. They deserve it. Baker’s saying something they don’t like, good. The team stinks.
Stop focusing on the messenger, inadequate as he might be, and listen to the message. If us fans allow this to be swept under the rug or refocused on Silva rather than what he had to say then we will deserve the team that we get, too.
I’m going to have a hard time pushing the go button since I don’t think of this as light but here it is anyway.
If anyone deserves to have an outburst like this, it is probably Felix. He’s the only one I wouldn’t almost immediatley dissmiss as being a hothead after something like this.
This team, from the top down, has no commitment to actually winning.
I love it when people just make stuff up.
Geoff Baker, Carlos Silva, OscarM, me - it doesn’t matter; when anyone starts judging someone else’s motivations based on their results, ignore them. It’s stupid, pointless, and impossible.
Baker and Silva thinks the M’s suck because they don’t try and don’t care. Do they care that it’s equally possible that they suck because they lack talent? Nope, because that’s not as fun of a story.
People suck at assessing other people’s character, and there’s no reason why we should take any of their opinions seriously.
You’re clearly just saying that because you’re biased against Carlos Silva, Dave. How dare you.
I understand what you are saying, Dave, but I’m not trying to make statements about people’s characters. I’ve never met any of the players involved. My statement about commitment to winning has to do with my take on the team’s actual statements.
I hear them say that they are striving to be competitive. What does that mean? I see them take no significant steps to modernize their methods. I see them make a move such as extending for three years a catcher that is hitting less than 200.
I’m not saying they’re bad people, I’m saying that their actions do not speak to a team that wants to be good enough to win the World Series. Not really.
Am I feeling frustrated and more than a little emotional about it? Guilty. Am I out of line? It wouldn’t be the first time. Am I suddenly sounding like Donald Rumsfeld? Yes, time to stop.
Right, my bad. I’m also protecting Jose Lopez and Yuniesky Betancourt, I think, even though I’ve advocated trading both of them and getting an entirely new middle infield. Apparently, I also don’t watch the games.
Do you think Baker could have worked in any more passive aggressive shots at us?
I hear them say that they are striving to be competitive. What does that mean? I see them take no significant steps to modernize their methods. I see them make a move such as extending for three years a catcher that is hitting less than 200.
They fired the GM and the manager mid-season. What else do you want them to do?
I’m not saying they’re bad people, I’m saying that their actions do not speak to a team that wants to be good enough to win the World Series. Not really.
But again, you’re equating poor results with a lack of desire. You’re judging their motivations and intents based upon their results. That’s exactly what I’m saying we can’t do. Geoff Baker can think he can be a mind-reader if he wants, but I’m telling you that he can’t - none of us can.
He certainly couldn’t have come across as more condescending to both USSM and anyone who regularly reads his blog. Just banal and predictable and all around frustrating to see someone with such a loud instrument of communication like the Times Blog waste it on such drivel.
I just wish he’d stop playing at being a psychologist and analyst and go back to being a fantastic reporter.
Amen, Dave.
Although the second paragraph of the rant was a bit convoluted, the whole thing was also a family friendly quote.
The contrast to McLaren could hardly be clearer. When Silva publicly went after his teammates while McLaren was manager, McLaren did nothing publicly. Then McLaren finally went off, but in a way that was plenty profane, but not very impressive.
I would love to see Silva experience some real consequences. Put him in the lineup at SS or 2B one day and ask him to bunt when he comes up to bat. He’d think twice before throwing his teammates under the bus again.
I also agree that it is sickening the way that Baker analyzes the speech, but ignores the bit about the starting pitchers being good, and how the problem is only with the field players. It reminds me that professional writers can have a point of view, while pretending not to.
I’m sorry, Dave, but I can’t be like you. All my life I have judged work by results. I don’t know another way. Sure, the GM and manager were fired but so what if they simply replace them with like-minded substitutes. I try not to confuse activity with effectiveness.
Somehow we got off-track, though. I wrote in only because I didn’t think that Baker was so off the mark or that he was giving unqualified support to Carlos Silva. I note that he actual does talk to the players and maybe he’s not practicing mind-reading. We simply differ on this. I didn’t mean for my pent up rant to take the discussion so far afield.
Do you think Baker could have worked in any more passive aggressive shots at us?
Baker is beyond snarky, and has been most of the season. However, in the spirit of this discussion I’ll refrain from making assumptions about the source of his frustrations.
All my life I have judged work by results.
That’s not what Dave is on your case about. He said you’re judging motivation and intent based on results.
My only problem with what Riggleman said was how he thought it took more courage for Silva to say that when he is 4-13. It seemed to me just a frustrated player letting it out. It would be more impressive if he said it the right way and was 13-4. Seeking improvement in the team even if he had a good record.
But for the time being Silva is just a fat overpaid whiner to me and Riggleman is helping saving face for the organization along with Lee P and his moving players.
All my life I have judged work by results.
Which is fantastic, only baseball isn’t like your job or mine. These guys get to this level by being amazing atheletes and terribly hard workers. You don’t get to the big leagues by tanking it every time your team sucks or my only putting the minimum effort in. Those guys get weeded out in college and the low minors. Most of the coaches I know of don’t let anyone coast.
The fact of the matter is, is that most of the Mariners aren’t very good (for the level they’re playing at). Yes, I think Lopez probably takes a few too many plays off in the field, but I’m not going to attribute the M’s sh**** play this season to just that. Silva and by extension, Baker through his blog, point to players being lazy as a primary source of this team’s problems. Some of us would argue otherwise.
Longtime lurker here. Anyways, I got to go to Saturday’s game and had awesome seats. Sat next to an M’s scout/coach/consultant who sits directly behind homeplate (with the speed gun) at every game. He’s been with the team for 18 years. In talking to him, he was very impressed with Silva’s “calling people out” and thought that was responsible for the inspired play (through the first 5 innings at least). He also thinks the org needs “big changes,” which includes “getting people (veterans) who know how to win, especially guys from Boston and New York.”
Old ways die hard, I guess.
In other news, he had no problems whatsoever with Lopez and was totally frustrated with Wlad. Kind of happy with RRS.
True, I do judge motivation and intent on results. Let’s look at it another way.
I’m overweight. I don’t like it, especially when I see pictures of myself. So, I tell myself and others that I don’t like it and I’m going to do something about it. I joined a gym, I stopped snacking and cut down on beer.
But, as time goes by, I find reasons to not go to the gym, I still like a nice muffin in the morning and, gee, beer is so good. (All this is true by the way.)
The next time I told you I was going to lose weight, would you believe me? Would you question my intent and motivation? What’s the difference? The results speak louder than the talk.
OscarM- That doesn’t really work. Lopez still shows up, hits, plays 2nd base. He hasn’t stopped coming to play. He makes an error and people equate it to laziness when it could just be he has bad hands or lacks coordination to be an elite defensive player.
The problem, however, is that you have a choice. You could go the gym, but you don’t. There’s a direct correlation between your actions and the result you are judging yourself on.
Yuniesky Betancourt isn’t choosing to airmail throws into the dugout. He’s not like “meh, I don’t really feel like getting this guy out”. He didn’t go into the season with a goal to get on base 27% of the time. There is not the same direct correlation between his results and his efforts. Players try hard and fail all the time, because their results are influenced by the efforts of others, as well as outside factors they have no control over.
A better metaphor for this situation is looking at the education gap in America and deciding that African Americans just don’t want to college as much as white kids do. If Carlos Silva had gone off on how minorities aren’t working hard enough to get into school, and ignored all the other factors that contribute to the massive gap we have, he’d have been destroyed in the press, and rightfully so.
But, for whatever reason, sportswriters love this crap. They love talking about how the guy who hit a game winning home run did it because he had so much heart and a will to win, and the guy who gave up the home run just couldn’t handle the pressure. Of course, if the ball had been caught at the wall, they’d have written the exact opposite - the pitcher was clutch, the hitter was not.
It’s all stupid.
I never said anything about Jose Lopez or any other player. In fact, I don’t really hold the players responsible. It’s my opinion, and it is just an opinion after all, that the culture of this team is not rigorous about playing the best baseball possible and taking actions that make that an attainable goal.
An example would be the sporadic, almost arbitrary, instances of benching for a single bad play. What does that accomplish? The players are who they are. I don’t know if any of them are purposely not doing well. I think the opposite, in fact. No player slept their way to the major leagues. My gripe is with the organization not the individual players.
letinsky,
Let me be the first to say, thank god that guy only holds the radar gun. I’d still fire him though.
Well, if Carlos thought the position players dogged it before, wait until his next start.
I think the hitters are great at making outs. I wish they would stop being great at it, frankly. Silva is pretty good at NOT making outs. I wish he’d stop that, too.
It seems like Baker’s entire argument that Silva’s words had merit rests on the assumption that the Mariners are severely underperforming their projections. But whose projections is he talking about? DMZ pointed out that PECOTA called for a 73-89 record, while his own work with ZIPS projected an average of 77-85.
Coolstandings.com is predicting a final record of 64-98, which is definitely below both of those predictions, but significantly so? Even after accounting for Putz’s injury, Wilkerson’s collapse, and other unpleasant surprises? Enough so that it’s really worth going into the supposed attitude and effort issues that Baker thinks make such a difference?
I don’t know what PECOTA had for the collapse rate for the 2008 Mariners, but it seems to me that if you start with an expectation of a 73-win season, it doesn’t really matter how much you’ve undershot that, because you never had much of a chance of contending in the first place.
yes, Dave, I have all those choices. It’s the same for everyone. Again, focusing on the organization, not the players, if the team hires Antonetti, you will make a judgment that they want to change their way of doing business. If, instead, they make Pelekoudas permanent, you’ll make another judgment about them.
I totally agree with you regarding player motivation and the judgment of minute-by-minute clutchness. However, if your job is to be a professional cheerleader I guess you find the best way to do it.
But again, you’re equating poor results with a lack of desire. You’re judging their motivations and intents based upon their results. That’s exactly what I’m saying we can’t do. Geoff Baker can think he can be a mind-reader if he wants, but I’m telling you that he can’t - none of us can.
I post as often here as I do over at Baker’s blog. I’ll just say what I usually say over there - Baker’s a better reporter than analyst. In fact, I haven’t been able to find a consistent analytical philosophy, though he often presents tough topics, at least. It may be why it’s hard to find true reporters who can be worthwhile commentators at the same time. It must be difficult to flip the switch to properly scrutinize what you’d ordinarily report in a straightforward way.
I’ll agree with you Dave, to a certain extent. We can’t know with certainty what anybody’s motivation is. I only agree to a point, however. Conclusions about motivation based on circumstance and evidence - where it can be found - is valid. It’s what our entire system of justice is based on. Far fewer cases than you might think have confession notes or smoking guns involved. We solve our most serious problems by making reasonable conclusions re: motiation based on the evidence. I think that is valid in most of our daily experience, and can be in baseball in many cases. That said, I don’t know that Baker has a lot of objective measures to decide that people are dogging it out there, but there are certainly some circumstances in which you can tell -relative to normal performance, ritual, condition and effort - that someone is more or less prepared or focused. I just don’t think this is one of those times.
The problem I have with Baker is he goes after the less plausible explanation for why the team is not playing well. They suck. Why do we have to go to “unmotivated” and “phoning it in” when, in the case of most of the players on this team (unlike certain Yankees and Lakers teams of the past), you don’t look at the evidence and - with a straight face - assume people aren’t trying. You look at the team and say, “man, these guys aren’t built to succeed, and look, they aren’t succeeding.” They aren’t as bad as they’ve been all year, but they aren’t good. There really is no need to dig deeper, especially in response to a comment from a guy who is one of the reasons the team is failing.
Who, IIRC, at least had enough class not to throw his teammates under the bus when he had to battle his way through a season with lousy run support. But, then again, BB thought he was an underachiever…
Yes, I believe you’re right. Heck, Freddy could have his arm in a cast and probably still go longer in a game than The Chef.
Dave -
I think Yuni is a bad example for what you’re talking about. Yuni is pretty clearly underachieving. And not only is he underachieving on potential, he’s regressed from actual performance (defensively). While he may not have gone into the season with the goal to be a below average fielder, it certainly doesn’t appear that he went into the season with the goal to win a gold glove. I could be wrong, but I think the odds are fairly strong that Yuni’s poor work ethic, which has a lot to do with “want”, “heart”, “love of the game”, or whatever other immeasureable you’d like to toss in there, is the problem.
As for Silva and Riggleman, I liked what both of them had to say. I like that Silva blew up, it was nice to see that I’m not the only one thats upset about his paycheck to performance ratio (although at the end of the day he cashes that paycheck, so I’m sure he’s not real upset about it). And I like that Riggleman took charge, showed actual leadership, and told Silva where to go. I think in the end this was a good thing, a pitcher (who may or may not have been speaking for multiple pitchers, probably at least one other) finally boiled over and the manager handled it like a pro.
Oscar, I can’t decide whether you:
1. Are changing your position to avoid criticism.
or
2. Agreed with Baker and Silva without reading either what they wrote/said or what Dave wrote about what they wrote/said.
Because where you started in this thread is an entirely different place then you ended up.
And didn’t Carlos refer to himself as ‘Big Chief’? This reminds of one of my favorite early 90’s bands.
Nate - Why is it good that Silva blew up? What did it accomplish?
And a good rule is that “if you could be wrong,” then you might not want to attack someone’s character. Saying someone has a lack of work ethic or heart or love of the game is pretty cheap.
It’s also really hard to judge. People work different ways. Remember… some idiots call Ichiro lazy.
Funny you should mention that…I remember those guys from when I was living in Ann Arbor back about 1990 and they were giggin’ around town in those days…small world!
And, speaking of Midwestern 80’s lore, there was also a fast-food chain around the region in those days known as Burger Chef. Since they went out of business in 1996, I think that title is now available for Silva to use.
I too agree that it is nice to see a manager say the things Riggleman said. He did bat Vidro 4th quite a bit, though, so I’m not in any hurry to put on my Riggleman in 09 button.
However, I think there may be some truth to interim managers being a little scared to shake things up too much when they take over. It must be a hard gig to find a way to win without making the grizzled veterans hate you, making the young guys understand that the grizzled veterans are wrong, and allowing the front office to see that you can win games and keep the oh so important chemistry high.
I think Rigglemans response to Silva is what made this a good thing. This is something that seems to have been brewing for a while, it’s finally out there now and Riggleman handled it great. It smacked Silva down and bumped Riggleman up. I guess I kind of see it as the fever breaking, maybe we can get past some of this stupid stuff and focus on baseball, and we can do it with a strong manager.
As for attacking Yuni’s character, I put it in quotes for a reason. I can’t, and don’t care to, judge Yuni’s love of the game. I will however attack his work ethic, I can’t see any other reason for him to regress the way he has other than he hasn’t taken his craft seriously. You can look at him offensively and say “He’s just not very good”, you can’t say the same for his defense.
Baker and Silva thinks the M’s suck because they don’t try and don’t care. Do they care that it’s equally possible that they suck because they lack talent? Nope, because that’s not as fun of a story.
Dave - is it also possible that the M’s both lack talent as well as some M’s just dont care? Aren’t both possible?
Raul Ibanez may lack talent in playing terrific defense at LF, but he atleast cares (that does not mean much to some fans, it means something to some fans - is there wrong with that?)
Jarrod Washburn does not have the talent of Felix (he openly accepted this on national TV), but he has heart and he cares. Some fans acknowledge that commitment to the team.
Lopez and Betancourt - they lack work ethic and talent (as has been pointed to in this blog and others); but they also dont seem to care that the team is losing. Lopez play at 2nd has been DISGUSTING in the last 2 weeks. Whats wrong in saying that they have lack talent + they dont care ? Ofcourse we cannot quantify “the dont care” part, but its there for all of us to see.
Unfortunately, between those two, the one I’d rather not see come back next year (and the year after), WILL come back. The one I wouldn’t mind seeing come back, probably wont.
I wonder if Baker’s interpretation would really be true in this clubhouse. Young as he is, Felix is not a rookie anymore, he is on a team that is now pretty much evenly split between veterans & kids, and he is universally acknowleged as the ace.
John in LA - Criticism doesn’t bother me. What you are seeing is me calming down and trying to be more rational. I’ll try and be succinct. I responded first to the statement that Baker was in full-support of Silva. I, like Baker, see the outburst as a symptom of the real problem which is an underachieving organization. I reacted to the subtle notion that the message is bad because the messenger is bad. I believe that Geoff Baker, in his way, is trying to explain why this team has failed. I don’t believe that he simply wants the players to make his job easier by talking to him. I don’t believe that he was supporting Silva because Silva provided him with a ready-made column.
We then went on to a discussion of describing people’s motives. I tried to beg out of that because I agree it’s very slippery ground. I regret any personal sounding statements I made.
That then became, don’t judge on results. Sorry, I don’t know how else to judge but results and will go on to say that everyone here does, too. The difference is the measuring stick. We have learned not to use ERA as a measure because it’s faulty. We have learned to use other measures. Those are results all the same just measured differently.
My conclusion from all this is that I won’t be so quick to blurt out my frustrations. This site, as few others, is really about rationality. I get that. I’m more interested in the macro results, wins v losses and progress to the playoffs. The micro results needed to get there I will continue to learn about here. I know we are all on the same page on that.
re: Yuni
Apparently they have been complaining internally to Yuni all season long, if you believe Drayer’s articles, and that didn’t seem to be working. I don’t think this will help but my guess is that Silva was annoyed that after all that complaining and trying to be positive, he was still a big slacker. Drayer’s last (unfortunate pun) blog post seems to say that he was actually taking a bit more practice.
OscarM, 63 — Yes, Baker is trying to explain why this team fails. Yet he fails in his explanation. Three simple words: “They lack talent.” Find talented players and you would be amazed at how much the “effort” and “desire to win” suddenly emerges.
Baker really seems to take the blog a little too seriously. This happened last year too–he started out having reasonable conversations with commenters and as the season wore on he got increasingly worked up about any kind of disagreement he had with blogs or other fans, and would reply with some condescending snarkiness when there was any questioning of his opinions.
He just posted an update that almost reads like a FJM parody of a journalist playing the “I’M A TRAINED JOURNALIST AND YOU’RE A LOWLY BLOGGER” card. He at least didn’t accuse anybody of living in their mom’s basement, but he came really close.
And if nothing else, Carlos Silva ought to demonstrate that poor results can happen even if you are full of desire. He’s so full of desire to win games that he wants to grab a teammate by the neck and throw him into a wall. Yet all that desire amounts to Silva being a terrible pitcher. If desire was more important than talent, Silva would probably be challenging for the Cy Young. As it is, that ain’t what’s happening.
I’m starting to agree with whomever it was a few days ago that said Baker might be the instigator of the clubhouse cancer we’ve got. As far as the reaction if Felix said something, I bet it would be split. The overcoddled veterans who suck would be offended, and the rest of the team would feel bad for letting Felix down.
OscarM - that’s more than fair.
Nate - You may or may not be right, it’s just that I can imagine other explanations for his regression. And absent certainty, I think it is unfair to assume that he isn’t trying hard enough.
And lets not forget that Yuni is sort of the easy one to point at here.
Silva called out HALF THE TEAM. He pissed on the efforts of half the team. And Baker basically applauded him for it.
Even if we had a signed note from Yuni saying that he’s not trying because he wants to get cut so he can open a Denny’s franchise… Silva would still be an ass for saying what he did. Ditto Baker.
Silva’s outburst is the height of self-serving self-righteousness. In calling out half the team, he makes sure you all know that Silva tries hard.
You guys read way too much into Baker’s comments. I read his comments as “the whole team is under-performing” and while Silva might not have been the right guy to say so and he probably was unfair in limiting it to the hitters, it isn’t horrible that somebody did say it to someone who could actually print this as problems on the team versus speculation.
What other reasons do we have? I’d love to give Yuni the benefit of the doubt, I just don’t see any real alternatives.
I like Riggleman. I wouldn’t cry if they gave him one more shot next year. He’s shown more leadership as manager than anybody since Lou. Melvin always seemed overwhelmed by being Lou’s successor. Grover’s problem is that the game seemed to have left him behind AND he had an aversion to playing his kids and bench. Mac proved he was too much of a good buddy to the vet players and not much of a decisive manager (case in point the game where he had Felix go back out for a few more pitches when he said he was tired - reason was he had NOBODY throwing in the pen!).
I can’t understand why some of you think he’d be fine elsewhere yet can’t endorse him here? Aren’t we all in agreement that managers are a bit overrated in what they do? The key would be to give Riggleman a good team to throw on the field.
What I like about him is he is more than willing to use his bench AND the kids. It’s refreshing to see this from an M’s manager.
Riggleman wouldn’t be an awful choice to stay on as manager as long as a good GM is brought onboard.
If that happened, would Silva be a regular? I wonder…does Silva disappear during games to get some hot dogs?
Nate - Well, I know nothing of his personal life. It could contain a million explanations. I’m not his shrink, so there could be hundreds of different issues he’s battling. I’m not his doctor, he could be on medication.
My point is that we don’t know enough to say there is “only one” explanation. There are infinite alternatives, some of them not all that far-fetched.
But, honestly, when the discussion is focused on a single player’s habits, with some corroboration, I find it less disturbing than the tired old cliche about effort trotted out whenever a team does poorly.
But I have not yet seen anything that would make me say Yuni isn’t trying. I just have no way of knowing.
So what? I mean, why should I care if Washburn cares? I don’t want to watch him care, I want to watch him get hitters out. He’s not very good at doing that, so I don’t like him. End of story. How much he wants it or means it isn’t an issue. They could put me in there to pitch, and nobody, but NOBODY would care more; but I’d give up .667 balls, .333 towering home runs.
I don’t care if they care. I care if they play well. The two are not related in any significant way.
I think the bottom line is, when you are the worst combination of overpaid and underperforming (in terms of contract, not ability–I know he sucks) on the team, you should throw yourself under the bus. If not just yourself, then at least yourself first.
I read Baker’s comments… no one here is being overly critical of them. Everyone is being too nice, actually. They are really pretty weak.
For starters, he doesn’t print the worst part of Silva’s rant. Probably wise, since it contradicted pretty much the rest of what Baker said.
Hah. What a weak attempt. “Predicted” in quotes? Really, Baker? And I bet they would finish under .500. I’m sorry, I mean, I “bet” they would finish under .500.
Really, Geoff? Is THAT the reason? What computer are you using? And why would you expect people to hit their career norms?
Then he can’t decide whether they aren’t trying hard or aren’t being smart. Silva was clearly about effort, but Baker wanted to cover his bets, I guess.
Good point. Maybe if you see a journalist, you should ask him.
I was thinking this exact thing yesterday, while listening to the radio broadcast of the game. The announcers were going on and on about how the Rays had such great chemistry, they were a real team that cared about each other, blah blah, and that is why the Rays are winning this year.
Boy, all those years the Rays were in last place. If only they had just gotten along better, they would have jumped to first. And stupid us, we all thought it was because they lacked talent.
If U.S.S. Mariner is going to have a link to Geoff Baker, might as well put one up to Dusty Baker. Their analysis is getting harder and harder to tell apart.
Baker starts off with the point that the team was expected to win this season. Then immediately puts an emphasis on the people who thought last season was a fluke and that there would be regression this season, as if those who expected the latter got lucky.
Yeah, maybe those of us who weren’t optimistic about this season are in the minority. But, that doesn’t make us lucky, or mean that we can’t correctly evaluate talent. It means that we aren’t sheep, and that we don’t have the influence power that ESPN has.
Baker’s work just isn’t that good. It just gets worse as the season drags on, and he starts getting defensive and taking pot shots.
I suppose we should all crawl out of our basements and go to journalism school where we can learn those skills. Correctly evaluating skills isn’t good enough.
I must admit, I may have overreacted. I read Geoff’s post again, and he was very right about one thing:
“And the reason is that so many players, individually and collectively, have failed to meet either their career or computer-projected norms.”
If St. Louis fails to make the playoffs, it will be because Stan Musial failed to meet his career norms.
If St. Louis fails to make the playoffs, it will be because Stan Musial failed to meet his career norms.
That’s because Stan was padding his stats hitting all those home runs.
He should’ve been bunting guys over to third during the 4th inning. Selfish, selfish player.
Carlos Silva, to paraphrase the Bible: Let he who does not suck cast the first stone.
Or eat the first stone?
yum, stone soup!
THANK YOU. Someone needed to write this.
Or, stone burgers?
Stone Brewery is the best.
In slight defense of Lopez, he is .353/.382/.541 since the allstar break, which is a major departure from past seasons. Maybe he is just concentrating so hard on keeping the offensive output up that he is losing concentration on defense.
Or maybe he is auditioning for the DH slot, he would be much better than what we had. At 24 I don’t think we should be ready to give up on him, but either Yuni or Lopez needs to go. The two of them together are a disaster.
I realize I should be making some attempt to address Silva’s comments, but he is dead to me.
Okay. I get that they are not related in a way significant to this discussion. And if a player is playing well, I guess I don’t care if they care.
However, it would certainly bug me if a player was saying “Yeah, I know I can’t hit a fastball over 80 mph now, but I have 4 years and $40 million left on my contract, so I don’t see the need to try to make any adjustments.” I’d be pissed about that.
This example is extreme, but I’m thinking of the “they lack talent and they (apparently) lack a good work ethic (which is translated as they don’t care).”
Hmmm … I guess I’ve partially changed my own mind … I guess it doesn’t matter to me if they “care” at all (because, as has been pointed out, there is no way at all for us to know). What matters is (for a poor performing player), does the evidence point to them significantly trying to do better. The latter is still hard to judge, but at least there are things that seem to fall into the evidence category.
Oh, and I’m still going to prefer the high performing player.
The DBacks don’t care if Adam Dunn doesn’t care. He did hit 12 HRs in July though.
I still have a suspicion that the real reason that Silva blew up is that somebody (Yuni?) ate his post-game Silva burger.
Whatever you do, don’t mess with Jose’s food.
No, actually he blew up because he ate too many burgers.
After the M’s DFA him, Yuni could always hire him as the burger chef.
Baker’s piece on Silva struck me as a huge, thinly veiled strawman….
Where are these throngs of fans offering a mulligan?
The only scarecrow I’ve seen speak let alone howl was a key character in the Wizard of Oz…
It’s a confusing argument considering how he framed it….i.e. howling masses are letting the Ms off of the hook by denying the impact that poor chemistry has had upon the Ms record…by….presumably…..blaming the Ms poor performance on a lack of talent?????????? The Ms suck because they suck therefore everything is ok? Is that what Baker is seriously suggesting massive numbers of Ms fans are howling?
Really, Baker is kind of like Dunn. Great bat (reporter) whose value is diminished by making him play the field (fill the blank space on a blog as newspapers try to remain relevant).
And also how little Geoff understands how a clubhouse actually works. Generally speaking, when someone talks the talk and backs it up by walking the walk, they are accepted in the clubhouse as a leader. Doesn’t much matter how old they are, if they back up what they’re saying with their on-field performance, people will listen.
I like Riggleman and what he said about Silva (and his refusal to answer the question about Lopez before he talked with him). I would not support him for manager next year, though, because next year’s manager has to have enough status and front office support to play players where they belong, not where they are “happy.” That means Ichiro in CF and Ibanez (if he’s still here) as DH. Riggleman already doesn’t have that stature, so good bye. Good guy, though.
Backing it up for more than just a season, too.
How old do ya have to be a veteran?
Doesn’t even take that sometimes. Look at Ryan Braun and Prince Fielder for the Brewers, or Evan Longoria for the Rays. All were leaders in their clubhouses before they had a year of service time. Longoria’s injury will devastate the Rays, and not just from a production standpoint.
Heck, even Kevin Youkilis was an example of that. He was a leader in the Sox clubhouse before he was even a regular starter, for crying out loud…
Jeff Sullivan stated my thoughts much more eloquently than I could:
Just like the internet meme. Time to bust out photoshop:
“Bad team is bad.”
“Old veteran is old.”
“Fat pitcher is fat.”
Looks like Raul’s put himself on Dave’s side of the debate…
Certainly, there are the simple matters of pride and professionalism, which should go without saying. But pitcher Carlos Silva on Friday called into question the motivation of a portion of his teammates, accusing some of them — “maybe half” — of playing only to pad their statistics.
That rant didn’t go over well with manager Jim Riggleman, who thought Silva should have expressed those opinions privately. That opinion was shared by team elder Raul Ibanez, whose performance has been exemplary of late (.337, seven homers, 24 runs batted in since the All-Star break).
“You know what I disagree with? If you do feel that way, saying it publicly,” Ibanez said Sunday. “I disagree with that.”
Asked if he agreed with Silva’s basic premise, Ibanez said, “There’s no way of telling. How do you tell if a guy is playing for himself? I don’t think that’s a fair comment, to be honest. I just don’t see that. And if I did see it, I wouldn’t tell you. If I had a problem with someone, I’d walk up and tell him. That’s how I’d approach it.”