From Minnesota, the other side
What’s an indication?
From the Minneapolis Star-Tribune:
I received indications that the Twins offered Boof Bonser. Makes sense, as he is out of minor-league options, and the Twins would need to clear a spot for Washburn. As I wrote recently, Bonser is only 26, and it makes sense for a team that is way out of the race to let Bonser make 10 starts down the stretch.
Bonser isn’t even eligible for arbitration, so the Mariners could have found a pitcher for their 2009 rotation who will make less than $500,000 next year.
Oh no. I have indications the Mariners insisted on getting one of the Twins’ current starting pitchers. Yeah, like Nick Blackburn or Kevin Slowey. That, friends, is sheer lunacy.
I’m interested to see what the Mariners leak in response to this. Blackburn or Slowey for Washburn and Washburn’s contract would, indeed, be total, howl-at-the-moon insanity.
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If the M’s turned down Bonser, they are dumber than a box of hammers. A box of really, really dumb hammers.
The only downside to a Washburn-Bonser trade would be Rizzs telling us that “Boof” is his real name every five days, but I figure that’s a small price to pay for getting out of Washburn’s contract.
The StarTrib article speculated that the M’s FO is worried about the fans thinking there’s a fire sale going on. Hello, Howard? Chuck? You should be more worried about the fire that’s going on.
There is NO hope for this organization until a total house cleaning takes place in the front office.
Boof Bonser isn’t great but he has shown talent and for the M’s to actually get something of value in Bonser AND to have the Twins take on the contract would have been a MAJOR coup in my opinion.
This horrible season gets worse. Didn’t think it could but it does. I want to hit my head in to a brick wall when I think about how easy and great a move this would have been to move Washburn.
Frankly I am really surprised the Twins have interest in him given that they have a strong rotation.
The only way that it’s not completely ridiculous to ask for Blackburn or Slowey is if the Twins insisted that the Mariners pick up some large portion of Washburn’s contract. It would make sense in that the Twins probably don’t want to add payroll that badly, but as Christensen mentions, it’s tough to make that claim without showing at least some willingness to take on that contract. Even then, it seems pretty ridiculous given that Blackburn and Slowey each have roughly five years left under team control.
Either way, I don’t think that the Mariners are really making any friends by making lunatic trade demands.
I don’t think this changes much. The Ms have always thought too much of Washburn, and never seem to have considered treating his salary as something worth getting rid of.
Frankly I would have been shocked at this point if they had accepted anything other than major league talent for him. Which is, of course, where the “howl-at-the-moon insanity” comes into play.
Still, details are grist for the blogosphere mill. Thanks for the update.
Last night I went and saw a game at Fenway, as I’m in Boston. I watched Jed Lowrie, Jason Bay, and Kevin Youkilis all have tremendous games. Which was interesting, because these guys are all products of both a great farm system and / or a good front office.
If Pelekoudas decided AGAINST taking Bonser AND dumping Washburn, I’d fire him immediately.
Frankly I am really surprised the Twins have interest in him given that they have a strong rotation.
One of the reasons the Twins were willing to stick with Livan Hernandez so long is that they are worried about having such an inexperienced rotation. I don’t think it especially matters, but ideally, they would prefer to have a veteran in the rotation.
But the Twins wouldn’t have that leverage if they made a waiver claim on Washburn. The M’s could stick them with the entire contract by just saying “fine – you’ve got him.” The M’s wouldn’t get anyone back, but that would still be a good move for them.
“The only downside to a Washburn-Bonser trade would be Rizzs telling us that “Boof†is his real name every five days, but I figure that’s a small price to pay for getting out of Washburn’s contract.”
I am not so sure that is such a small price. But, yeah, the M’s completely screwed this up.
The Twins view is that Washburn is equal to Blackburn or Perkins. Which means they can move one of those two into the bullpen. The Twins bullpen is looking very very bad lately. Perkins and Blackburn have both worked out of the bullpen before.
However, as a Twins fan, I would howl if we even took Washburn for Bonser. Spend that $10m next year on getting a SS upgrade! But whatever.
Getting any sort of potentially useful player in addition to financial relief is an absolute steal. WHAT WERE THEY THINKING
I very much doubt that this was Pelekoudas’ decision. For anything “major”, it was strictly Chuck and Howie. And they have no clue.
Given how badly the M’s misuse the players they have (Cairo, Vidro, Clement), that might have been the best possible outcome. Acquiring Bonser might have meant we’d trade Wlad for Zito.
What I also don’t get – and I quite appreciate the Twins’ bullpen problems in front of Nathan – is the idea of sticking Washburn in their rotation so as to free up one of their current starters to move to the pen. Connected with this is the idea that Washburn is better than at least one guy in their rotation. Well I’ve looked through the Twins’ starters, and now that they’ve dumped Livan Hernandez, I don’t see a single guy there that Washburn would be an upgrade over. Which of course makes sense why they wouldn’t trade any of those guys for him.
I’m starting to think that our only real hope for a front office housecleaning is for the Japanese ownership to sell the team. Until then I think we’re stuck with Lincoln and Armstrong and their tenuous grasp of reality.
It’s all part of the plan.
PostiivePaul was saying yesterday that he believed it was a Lincoln/Armstrong decision to keep Washburn, and not Pelekoudas’.
I’m seriously hoping they weren’t having this meeting about Washburn and someone says, “Surely we can get more for Washburn! The man’s making $10 million – he’s obviously good!”
But the Twins wouldn’t have that leverage if they made a waiver claim on Washburn. The M’s could stick them with the entire contract by just saying “fine – you’ve got him.†The M’s wouldn’t get anyone back, but that would still be a good move for them.
Sure, the Mariners could do that, but it’s clear that they had absolutely no interest in simply dumping Washburn. They put him on waivers to trade him. Once that becomes clear, it’s just like any other trade discussion. The Twins offered the Mariners Bonser, and the Mariners didn’t want him.
After that, we get into hypothetical discussion, but the Twins could have said that if the Mariners wanted more than Bonser then they would need to pick up some of Washburn’s salary. Then the Mariners could have somewhat less ridiculously asked for Slowey or Blackburn, but the Twins ultimately would have said no deal.
However it did go down, the Twins gain quite a bit of leverage when it becomes obvious that the Mariners weren’t willing to just dump Washburn, and considering the various rumors from other teams about what the Mariners were asking for Washburn, it is really clear that the Mariners were insisting on a big return for Washburn.
Here’s the thing. Assuming Bonser isn’t hurt, I’d trade him straight up for Washburn even at the same salary. Bonser is a better pitcher than Washburn:
Bonser IP GB% K/9 BB/9 xFIP
2007 173.0 45.0% 6.8 3.3 4.60
2008 94.7 39.7% 6.6 2.9 4.51
Washburn IP GB% K/9 BB/9 xFIP
2007 193.7 36.5% 5.3 3.1 5.30
2008 135.7 36.2% 5.0 2.6 4.97
He strikes out more, walks the same, gets more ground balls, and is eight years younger. If the Twins said “you can have Bonser, but you have to pick up $2M of Washburn’s salary” I’d have said “Deal!” Bonser at $2M for next year would be fine.
Stupid, stupid, stupid Mariners.
That first sentence should instead start with “Throughout the entire Universe, …”
I simply don’t understand what this team is doing at this point. From the sound of it, neither does the rest of baseball though. He vaguely hints that top brass are fearful of making it look like a fire sale is occurring, but how in the hell is trading Washburn going to solidify that impression?
Even if they’re not taking into account player skills and are ONLY looking at this through a PR lens, this still doesn’t make sense. If my choices are “piss off stupid fans now who think we are giving up” versus “please stupid fans now in exchange for tying a boat anchor to our 2009 season that will inevitable increase the percentage of pissing off every fan alike when we continue to suck” … *deep breaths, Goob. Make happy thoughts.*
So if it is true the Lincoln/Armstrong blocked this trade, what smart GM candidate would want to work for the Ms?
Exactly the same thoughts as the box of hammers.
Here’s the thing. Assuming Bonser isn’t hurt, I’d trade him straight up for Washburn even at the same salary. Bonser is a better pitcher than Washburn:
I completely agree. I’m just trying to figure out how the Mariners managed to come up with an excuse for asking Slowey or Blackburn. It seems like the sort of demand that would make the other side hang up the phone. Maybe the Mariners really are that clueless.
Exactly. That the M’s bailed them out is totally ridiculous. I mean, how shocked must Bill Smith be that Bonser or Blackburn were refused – assuming either were actually on the table and this isn’t sportswriter musing here – AND the M’s responded by just picking up their ball and going home?
The problem I have with all of this is that it doesn’t seem to make sense. How would any of those guys on the Twins have any chance to make it through waivers?
Even as bad as he’s been, how would every team in the AL not claim Bonser?
While I can appreciate Pelekoudas not wanting to get “ripped off” (a la his former boss Woody Woodward when he gave away Tino and Nellie to the Yanks back in ’96), there also comes a point in time when beggars should not be choosers.
Yet another example of the Completion Backwards Principle.
Player to be named later. Trade would finalize after World Series. Mariners aren’t going anywhere this year, so they wouldn’t need that return piece in their rotation immediately.
gwangung:
My question to that would be, how couldn’t Lee sell them on this move? Sure the final decision may lie with HowChuck, but Lee has got to be a smart enough guy to be able to show them the benefits of this deal.
Then again, he may have tried, and they still told him no. Ugh, someone wake me up when this nightmare is over.
The M’s have the worst record in the AL: they can get anyone they want on waivers from any other AL team at this point.
Unless I’m misreading the waiver and PTBNL rules, both would have to be in the minors to qualify – no active-roster players can be PTBNL.
Which makes it highly unlikely either would pass through waivers, and makes it equally dubious either of those guys would be part of a trade.
They wouldn’t have to be PTBNL later though, and they wouldn’t have to pass through waivers, because of the M’s record. They get first crack at anyone on waivers.
Carson – thanks, Derek answered the question as well. Forgot that they get first crack at waivers.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Thanks
No worries. Blame the insanity this organization is causing you for any mental lapses, or extreme booze consumption, this weekend.
Even if there isn’t a shred of truth to this report, the fact that those within the industry are comfortable suggesting this stuff about the Ms is, frankly, embarrassing as hell.
Who fires the top 2 guys in the organization. The only thing I can think of is the fans.
Petition?
We suck. I don’t wish that I was a Royals fan or a Pirates fan, but there are 28 other teams I’d rather be a fan of than the Mariners.
As a Twins fan, I still can’t see why the hell they think they need Washburn so badly. They have plenty of rotation depth and quality, especially now that they’ve exchanged Livan for Liriano. I’m sure tons of relievers making much less than $10MM have shown up on waivers the past 2 weeks. If they see bullpen depth is their greatest need – it isn’t – there’s better solutions than grabbing Washburn and putting one of their good young starters in the pen. That the M’s averted disaster for them by not sticking them with his contract doesn’t negate the poor idea to make the claim in the first place.
Next we will find out the Tigers offered Cabrera and Granderson and were willing pay their salaries but the M’s wanted Ordonez on top of that.
38: Except that the Tigers would never do that. Unlike the Mariners, they’re in pretty good position to at least contend next year.
Un flambeau, Jeanette, Isabelle!
(Wow – Dave’s a composer, too??? I knew he was multi-talented, but I had no clue 😉
Any chance those of us living in the greater Seattle area could organize a group to go down to Safeco Field one night and chant something like “Fire Armstrong” and “Fire Lincoln” to the chant of “Let’s go Mariners” to really express our displeasure?
Although I even wonder if that will have any effect…
Actually, I kinda like the chant of “Hey, hey…ho, ho…Howie and Chuck have got to go!”
Anyone have any ideas on how to smuggle effigies of Lincoln and Armstrong into the park? And a couple of nooses?
Steve T –
How about 2D cardboard effigies sandwiched inside a “I want Rally Fries” sign and nooses disguised as fashionable rope belts 🙂
That might work. You try it. I’m not at present interested in putting a another penny into their coffers.
Neither am I – went from being a full season ticket holder going to ~50 games a year to going to a grand total of 3 games so far this season (and leaving early from 2 thanks to the Mariners “staff of Aces”). I have tickets to 3 more games I may no may not go to depending on whether I can find another
suckerbuyer to take them off my hands.Why SHOULD anyone give them money? Minnesota just tried to give them $10 million and they wouldn’t deign to pick it up off the table.