Or were you looking for proof that it happens in general? I certainly didn’t claim that. I claimed that players *can* develop this skill. And it isn’t hard to find some players who actually have done so. Here is one: Richie Sexson is an example of a player whose walk rate increased throughout much of his career.

It is completely false that discipline cannot be developed or learned. If this were true, then plate discipline would not be considered an “old player” skill. In fact, both power and patience are skills that players can develop as they age.

Plate discipline is considered an “old player” skill because is does not decline with age the way other skills do, not necessarily because it can be taught to older players. If you have objective evidence that plate discipline can be taught at the professional level, please cite it. I’m not saying you are wrong. I am just repeating conventional wisdom that appeared in the most famous baseball book ever and is frequently repeated in sabrmetric discussions. I’d love to see actual evidence to the contrary.

I don’t understand why this is controversial, by the way.

Not to anyone in the 21st Century.

But this team seems adamant on keeping their Stone Age tools. They’re ignoring why they had the success they had in 2001; in fact, they seem to be doing the exact opposite of what made them so successful in 2001.

In 2001, Lou finally came around to the idea that selective hitters would wear down the opponent’s pitchers, after watching the Yankees do that to his pitchers. No team can survive getting five innings out of its starters night in and night out, and one way to get the starters out is to waste a lot of pitches and take a lot of pitches.

The 2008 Mariners are the perfect example of that, of course, with our starters typically in the 80s after four innings, while the other team’s starter has barely broken a sweat. I don’t understand why this is controversial, by the way.

The Mariners also need more bobblehead promotions.

If they hadn’t promoted so many bobbleheads in this organization already, we might not be looking at another last place finish.

Ba-dum.

It is completely false that discipline cannot be developed or learned. If this were true, then plate discipline would not be considered an “old player” skill. In fact, both power and patience are skills that players can develop as they age.
What people are confusing is the difference between “developing patience hitting” and “developing into a patient hitter.” Jose Lopez will never be a patient hitter. That doesn’t imply that he cannot become more patient than he currently is. To me it looks like the problem with the Mariners is that they both (a) choose hitters who aren’t likely to develop into patient hitters and (b) don’t attempt to develop these hitters’ patience.

Ah, good point. I think I’ll steal it for my own.

The question of whether “they” is vaguer than “he” as a pronoun referring to persons of both sexes depends on whether you care more about *number* or about *gender.* Both are vague, but they are vague in different ways. “They” obliterates the distinction between singular and plural. “He” confuses that between masculine and feminine. “It” suggests that what is referred to is sexless, lifeless, or non-human. (A little bit like the verb aru in Japanese).

Yuppers.

I seriously wonder if this isn’t an organizational philosophy built around: A) An old-school belief in batting average as the most critical offensive stat and; B) A foolish attempt to play a “more exciting brand of baseball.” It seems so consistent up and down the entire organization you have to believe they really want free-swinging players, if not for the reasons I’m imagining then for some other equally misguided purpose.

Hrm. More the former than the latter, I think. I don’t think they’re foolish enough to mix marketing aims with baseball aims at such a basic level. I think it’s truer that they think aggressive players put pressure on a pitcher…and I think I’ve read that they truly think they can teach patience at the major leauge level…

What people are confusing is the difference between “developing patience hitting” and “developing into a patient hitter.”

Yes, my mistake.

Jose Lopez will never be a patient hitter. That doesn’t imply that he cannot become more patient than he currently is.

Excellent example.