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Teammates Hate Ichiro, We Hate Teammates
In his second part of his rebuilding series, Geoff Baker writes about specific hostility towards Ichiro in the clubhouse during the early part of the season. Quoting the relevant portion:
And it was a clubhouse in need of some direction, given the problems engulfing it as the season came undone. When it came to Ichiro, who got off to a typically slow start in April and part of May, the internal turmoil nearly hit its boiling point.
“I just can’t believe the number of guys who really dislike him,” said one clubhouse insider. “It got to a point early on when I thought they were going to get together and go after him.”
The coaching staff and then-manager John McLaren intervened when one player was overheard talking — in reference to Ichiro — about wanting to “knock him out.” A team meeting was called to clear the air.
Now, you might wonder, what could Ichiro have done to foster such open anger? Clearly, he must have offended someone pretty severely.
Ichiro this year had to battle a midseason hamstring problem, and he was shifted from center field back to right because McLaren thought Ichiro was a better defender in the corner. While Ichiro is said to have recovered from his injury, his stolen-base totals dropped as the season progressed. He also did not get to some balls in the gap and the right-field corner at times, prompting more clubhouse complaints that he cared only about piling up hits instead of sitting out to heal properly.
Yep - the explanation given is that teammates want to “knock him out” because he plays when he’s less than 100% healthy. What a bastard. How could he possibly garner the respect of his teammates when he’s selfishly hurting the team by playing at a diminished level and keeping guys out of the line-up who could have helped the team win? If only he would learn how to be a clubhouse leader, such as Raul Ibanez, who would never struggle through pain, costing the team valuable runs in a playoff race while a ready replacement was waiting in the wings.
Oh, wait, that’s EXACTLY what Raul Ibanez did last year. You remember last year, right, where the team managed to stick in the race despite the fact that Ibanez had a .697 OPS the first four months of the season while playing absolutely brutal defense in left field. Remember last July, when he hit .184/.241/.262 as the team was trying to figure out if they were a legitimate enough contender to make a trade deadline acquisition, then later admitted that he had played through a painful shoulder problem that limited his power and affected his swing. Meanwhile, Adam Jones toiled in Tacoma, unable to get any playing time while Ibanez killed the team with some brutal performances.
Why was no one threatening to beat up Ibanez last year? Why is he a revered clubhouse leader while Ichiro is a selfish one dimensional egomaniac?
Because the stated reason is total crap. The players aren’t mad at Ichiro for playing hurt, even if that’s what they’ll state publicly. They’re mad at him because he’s Japanese, or he stretches by himself, or he wears funny clothing, or some other non-baseball reason. I’m not denying that they really do dislike Ichiro - this isn’t the first time this has come up - but I am calling BS on their reasoning. MLB players don’t get aggravated to violence because a guy won’t sit out when he’s hurt. Just the opposite, in fact, has been the case with Erik Bedard, where members of the team reportedly have no respect for him because he wouldn’t pitch with pain.
So, what is the real reason? It could be racially based (let’s be honest, MLB players aren’t the smartest crowd in the world), it could be personality based (”His shoes are pink - how gay!”), or it could be something else entirely. I have no idea, and I don’t pretend to know. But I do know this - I don’t care what a bunch of replacement level, washed up, overpaid and entitled career losers think about Ichiro’s efforts or value, and neither should the M’s front office. If Carlos Silva thinks Ichiro is selfish, then maybe Carlos Silva should look into being more selfish and pitching well enough to win a game once in a while.
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Time for Silva to go to the minor leagues. I think some AA ball and some long bus trips might do him some good.
I say release him, and take the money loss….write it off as bad debt, something. Get rid of this guy. He, Bedard, Washburn, and Batista…4 of our starting rotation…all sucked horribly this year, and at least 2 caused clubhouse problems. How come during a 116 win season we never heard anything? Is it because Ichiro, even in an “off” season, can still produce??? Seems to me “unknown” Silva is looking for any excuse to blame his crappy performance on.
Just because a lot of these players are overpaid doesn’t mean they’re not jealous ichiro makes more than they do.
I think the solution to all our problems is to bring Mike Cameron back.
It looks like the lightning rod theory comes into play here: The one on top takes all the hits.
I’ll never understand why some people, (coaches, players, media, fans, whatever) choose to go after Ichiro as some kind of scapegoat. He has never been a serious problem for the M’s on or off the field and should continue to be a fun player to watch in the future despite the rest of the Mariners continued retardation.
Come on Dave!!! Don’t you get it? The players were mad at Ichiro for continually showing them up and for leading by example. He made them look bad. How could they live up to the cover stories put into the press that they were all working hard but just were having bad luck all around. Ichiro on the other hand truly was working hard and playing well disproving their explanation of their poor performance and season.
This really makes me mad. And by the way, if this was going on in April, how come they’re reporting it now? I would have liked to hear this back then. Why sit on a story like that?
It’s surprising how much animus there was in the clubhouse this year. I’m not surprised they weren’t happy in general, but you had Rhodes going after Sexson repeatedly, Washburn and Bedard pretty much throwing Johjima under the bus, and now this. What the hell? I’ve never been more disgusted with this team. Ichiro deserves better than this bunch of clowns.
This really burns me up. Ichiro is one of the few bright spots on this team. Maybe the best reason to clean house next season is just to get the morons behind the Ichi-hating out of the clubhouse. You mention Ibanez playing through injury last year…what about Sexson? Mr. “comeback player of the year” apparently was playing hurt while putting up a backup middle-infielders’ OPS for the first four months of the season. Why weren’t Vidro and Sexson being plotted against by their grumbling teammates after their slow starts? If it’s not racism I’d sure like to know the reason.
FWIW, Baker keeps repeating that Washburn=Bus is wrong, and that Jarrod was misunderstood. Oh, and lots more people hate Ichi, really they do, but he just can’t tell you who.
One word….Chemistry
Was it Silva who specifically said he wanted to knock out Ichiro? I didn’t get that from the article so I’m guessing it’s been public knowledge.
It’s getting to the point where I ALMOST hope they trade ICHIRO! for his own sake. He doesn’t deserve this shit.
All the losing and now a bunch of jealous assholes that can’t even hold his jock…
Screw them all…
I think most of us are basing it on this
funny how these stories of disgruntled teammates and rumors of selfishness only showed up as the losing seasons piled up.
This isn’t Ichiro’s problem, it is his teammates’ problem. Ever noticed that when Ichiro shows up to play for the AL All-stars, the other AL all-stars love having him around. They respect him and find him likeable and engaging. David Ortiz, someone who is always mentioned a great clubhouse leader, likes Ichiro’s presence on the all-star team. Maybe the M’s should try to find more all-star caliber players to enhance both the clubhouse chemistry and the ability to win games.
I remember that but it doesn’t mean Silva was the same person who caused the team meeting by saying he wanted to knock out Ichiro.
I also remember Silva complaining that some teammates just cared about getting their two hits a night. Since only about three or four M’s actually hit worth a damn this year, there is a 25 to 33 percent chance that he was talking about Ichiro.
I mean, come on, getting two hits a night, what a jerk.
Tek has it right on…the Ms that are against ICHIRO are probably not Ibanez and Beltre…it’s probably the other 20 or so chumps that suck…I’m sure a good team, with good players, would love to have ICHIRO! in the clubhouse…
Actually, a story in one of the papers commented that Ichiro and Ibanez get along rather nicely. Ibanez teaches Ichiro some Spanish, and Ichiro teaches Ibanez some Japanese.
Allow me to play “Mariner’s Manager for a Minute.” The roster could be divided up into two groups of players, A and B.
Players in group A are players that, if they came to me and said “I have a serious problem with Ichiro” I would ask them to sit down and tell me about it, and I would be inclined to see if I couldn’t broker some sort of peace accord between them and Ichiro. Players in group B are players that if they came to me and said that, I would be inclined to pick up the phone, call the GM and, with the player standing there in front of me, say “Bill/Lee/Whoever, you should get rid of Player B, he’s a clubhouse problem and he’s lost my confidence.”
Guys in group A? Hmmmm.
Felix.
Beltre.
JJ.
maybe Morrow.
maybe Lopez.
There’s probably also a Group C, guys perhaps getting wrong ideas from some of the veterans. These guys I would tell to stop worrying about Ichiro and focus on their own development, and warn them not to screw up their careers by getting involved in clubhouse politics.
Guys in group C:
Morrow, Clement, RRS, Reed, Wlad, any of the September callups.
Of course, I’m not “Mariner’s Manager” for a minute, or any other duration. This looks like another example of the “most experienced coaching staff in history” failing on an epic scale.
Wonderful. Another reason to hate this sinkhole of a season.
There is one distinct difference between Ibanez and Ichiro though;
Ichiro does try to pad up his stats in meaningless games;
Like trying to bunt in the 8th or 9th inning when down by 5 runs or more; trying to steal a meaningless base when down by 5+ or leading by 5+. Ibanez does not do such things - mostly because he cannot and does not have skills to get a bunt single or steal a base, but teammates/fans see it differently.
Even in a losing meaningless crap of a season where we lost 100 games, Ichiro’s claim to fame is the 200 hits and the record of 8 consecutive 200 hit seasons - who cares ?????? Thankfully Bud Selig didnt show up for this one to give him a trophy.
Individual stats are nice, but the team winning is all thats important in baseball; Ichiro cares equally about his personal stats and thats what makes teammates mad.
True, Ichiro has talent - but he is no Edgar - a kind of player who is selfless, plays entirely for the team and is well respected. Ibanez does not have the talent level of Edgar, but he does play 100% for the team and gives it his all - and hence commands respect from players and fans.
The question is not - who is more important to a team; both types of players - players with supreme talent like Ichiro and players who are selfless and play hard (like Ibanez) are important to a team; its when you have both together as a package (like Edgar), you become a true superstar and HOF type player. Ichiro is unfortunately not on that level IMHO. (though this is debatable)
@ bakomariner:
Why couldn’t it be Beltre? There’s nothing in Baker’s story that confirms it’s not him, just as there’s nothing which confirms that it is. Heck, it could even be Felix. Why not? What does it even matter?
That’s what makes this such a worthless exercise. In the absence of facts (which Baker refuses to provide, as it would predictably cause problems for his ability to get players to open up to him in the future), this whole exercise is meaningless speculation.
You can say it’s probably some of the lousy players that are making these statements about Ichiro, largely because the M’s have plenty of those. And yes, it must be more than Silva if this was an issue in 2007, before he joined the team. But any speculation beyond that is just guessing games.
As much as you guys like Ichiro here, I think it’s a bit disingenuous (and biased) to just assume that the rest of the M’s clubhouse is either a bunch of morons or bigots for disliking him. That MIGHT be true, but I think a simpler, more reasonable explanation is that there might be something genuinely unlikeable about him.
I’m not ever going to be one who would trust or defend Baker’s analysis of a situation, so I’m hardly saying I think Baker got his ANALYSIS right, but let’s not completely discount his REPORTING on an issue (which you’ve praised in the past) just because you don’t like what is being reported.
I have no idea (or stake) in whether Ichiro is likeable or a good clubhouse guy or not. I just don’t think it’s the most solid argument to make that just because some people don’t like the guy YOU like, they must be racist idiots.
Bravo
No one is “discounting” the reporting as false.
And in regard to whether or not Ichiro is likeable or not, draw a T-bar graph. On one side put people who like Ichiro. This would include Ibanez, Lou [PINIELLA!!!], David Ortiz. On the other side put up a list of people who don’t like him. This might (and I stress might) include Silva and other M’s who are really, really bad. With which group are you willing to cast your lot.
oh, swell. after a “news update” that was just the line about ‘bodily harm’, KJR and its callers will now be addressing the topic.
me, I’m going to lunch.
(Apologies for the long post, but someone needs to say it).
My dream scenario for the new manager’s speech on opening day 2009:
“As your leader, I encourage you from time to time, and always in a respectful manner, to question my logic. If you’re unconvinced that a particular plan of action I’ve decided is the wisest, tell me so, but allow me to convince you and I promise you right here and now, no subject will ever be taboo. Except, of course, the subject that was just under discussion…
(Shows picture of Silva pitching in Iowa for the class A Corn Throwers).
“The price you pay for bringing up Ichiro as a negative is… I send your ass to class A ball. Just like Silva here. Now if any of you son of b*tches got anything else to say, now’s the *%$@ing time!”
Having been involved in team sports, I have had my share of sucking, and also being very good. There’s always one guy/girl who is fa above the rest in talent, and they stand out. When the team is doing badly, and the stand-out is still producing, people tend to become jealous. Personally, I tried to become MORE like that person. I was man enough to realize that I was sucking, and admitted it. It didn’t really matter to me if I “liked” the guy, or if he was “likeable”…he was the best player on the team.
This harkens back to the heated discussions about “clubhouse chemistry”…which brings up the question….has anyone asked Willie BoomBoom what HIS opinion is???
Tek,
I understand your point, but there are too many unknowns to “pick a side” as it were. Which is exactly MY point.
For all I know, Ibanez, Pinella and Ortiz are horrible judges of character, and the mysterious “sources” who dislike Ichiro are really good judges of character. I simply don’t know.
My objection was that this post (and some of the comments) seemed to me to make snap judgments that whoever dislikes Ichiro must have illegitimate grounds to do so — and the only justification for that stance seems to be the USSM really likes him as a player, and therefore those that disagree MUST be wrong.
I don’t think it’s about picking sides. It’s about testing whether the “facts” presented in Baker’s article are trustworthy, and if they are, if the players’ viewpoints have validity to them. Not a knee jerk reaction like someone just insulted your girlfriend.
Finally, I’ll just say that having superior baseball skills doesn’t necessarily equate to having good people skills. There are plenty of great ballplayers who are real jerks, just as I’m sure there are plenty of marginal players who are great people.
Although I will say that if we have to pick sides, I’d like not to be on Silva’s side.
Well, now that KJR callers are on the case, this should be resolved in a polite, intelligent manner.
From the NBCsports.com story, “Ichiro Suzuki is so unpopular in the Seattle Mariners’ clubhouse that teammates considered doing physical harm to the All-Star outfielder earlier this season”.
I don’t like the general term “teammates” without a qualifier, and I don’t like the references above to “the players”, as if it’s ALL the other players in the clubhouse.
No doubt it’s 2 or 3 of the worst malcontents who actually contemplated physical mayhem; it’s scary to think it’s taken TWO conferences by two different managers to halt this kind of thinking.
I want to know who these idiots are, and I want them gone, and I want this story to follow them and their future careers around like Carl Everett’s non-belief in dinosaurs. I don’t care who they are.
Perhaps it got lost in the shuffle, or else I missed references to it in the posts, but did anyone else read Jerry Brewer’s column? You know, the one in which he states:
Personally, I thought that poor hitting and fielding were really big problems, and maybe talent evaluation, too, but I’m just a schnook in Canada, not a paid sports journalist.
I think it’s safe to assume that Silva was one of the people angry at Ichiro, perhaps even the one who was threatening physical violence about him. His statements and behavior in the past definitely make a good case for that. However, I don’t think we should be assuming anything else about who was or was not complaining about Ichiro.
Baker did say in his latest update that the full answer of who complained about Ichiro would “shock many of you,” and while I can’t say I know which of his readers he’s thinking of, it sounds like it’s likely that fan favorites Beltre, Felix, and Putz could be among the crowd. That’s not to contradict any of what Dave said above (which I think is completely on-target) — just a reminder that when we argue that the anti-Ichiro crowd is motivated by stupid and/or racist reasoning, we’re not just talking about the guys we already hate.
Do you have evidence to support this statement?
I coach soccer. In order to build a good soccer team you have to have 2-3 superstars and a bunch of really good role players that understand their job is to work really hard to make the superstars as successful as they can be. The same strategy applies to basketball and a lot of other team sports.
Baseball, due to [its] discrete outcomes and [its] design of an individual game wrapped up in a team sport is a little different. However, the psychology still applies. Mediocre players shouldn’t think of themselves as superstars. Their job is to support the superstar. If they (Silva) can’t grasp that, then they need to be cut loose.
This is also a problem that results when you have a bunch of players on the club signed to mid level free agent contracts. You’ve invested too much money in them to cut them loose and you can’t get any return on investment for them if you try and trade them.
Pay big bucks for superstars, treat them as such. Build the hard working portion of the team through the draft. Fill in the middle with players that understand their place on the team and can easily be cut loose if needed.
The only time you are screwed is if one of your stars decides he wants to leave.
Micronos,
I am talking about likeability from a purely baseball perspective. If Lou Pinella thinks highly of Ichiro as a baseball player and enjoyed managing him for two seasons, well, that carries a lot of weight with me.
And the general USSM stance is not that people are not allowed to dislike Ichiro, but that, from the reporting we have at hand, there seems to be no grounds for being angry at Ichiro. If Baker reports that Ichiro insulted the honor of other players’ wives and mothers, then sure, threaten him with physical harm. But not diving for balls and playing through an injury, and playing decently, is not an excuse to be angry with him to the extent to desire to hurt him.
Except if you’ll read Dave’s post this is not at all the point he’s making — it’s that the stated reasons are not the actual reasons, and we don’t know the actual ones.
It can’t be Putz. He was a big fan of the Ichiro bobblehead.
I fail to see what is so bad about padding your stats.
Aren’t meaningless games exactly the place he should do that? If they’re meaningless, then what he does during them can’t make any material difference to the team, right?
Gods, these players are dumb.
This is a Manager’s job, I think. You’re a MANAGER. MANAGE your staff. Tell them they’re behaving like idiots.
Ichiro is the best thing about this team, both on and off the field, and he has been for years. If I’m the Mariners I’d ask MLB to put these malcontents on the restricted list.
Thank God that’s not what they said, then, right?
They said it was NOT for the reasons given in the article, not that is WAS for any other specific reason.
I don’t think that follows. We have no idea what he thinks would shock “many of us.” I think it is unfair to throw around names of people who we have no reason to suspect, just because we have no reason to suspect them.
This whole thing stinks, as does the reporting. Using anonymous quotes makes the whole thing play like it’s Ichiro’s fault.
You suck, media.
Hey, Baker sucks. Big surprise. What a revelation. What a coward.
Maybe “pad up stats” just means “get hits, stolen bases, etc., once the game is already put away.” Of course, then it will follow that all good players pad their stats (including Ibanez), except I guess high-leverage relievers (if there are any of those any longer).
Ichiro has of course publicly admitted that winning isn’t his only priority. He also thinks that baseball players should put on a show for the fans and make the game worthwhile for them to watch. Maybe that is why he steals bases in low leverage situations (if in fact he does do this very often, for which we need some evidence).
In any case who cares if someone pads his stats? What, is it more noble to “selflessly” strike out and get picked off once the game is out of reach?
As the wife of a long-time judo teacher and expert, I’d like to see Carlos Silva or one of those other characters take on Ichiro one-on-one. Ichiro probably would whip his @$$.
As a slightly-built youth, Ichiro might have learned a bit of Japanese martial arts expertise. Even a bit of non-aggressive judo balance-imbalance techniques would put Carlos Silva or others of his ilk flat on his back in no time…
Any Silva-Ichiro fight would begin with Silva shouting “Get in my belly!”
(emphasis mine in above quotes)
I don’t want to get into too much he said, she said here, but actually the original post implies TWICE that the unknown people who dislike Ichiro might be racist. Twice.
Bringing up racism (w/out any facts to support it) is a cheap way to try to undermine someone’s opinion. And implying someone is racist, or not very smart, or washed up, or a loser, just because that (mystery) person DISAGREES w/ you is not solid analysis, nor an attempt to get at objective reality. And this post does all of those things.
This is un-freaking-believable!!
Let me get this straigh! Mariners are down 10-0. I’m up to bat. I should NOT get a hit because the game is basically over and I would just appear to be padding my stats. Or, the Mariners are winning 10-0 and I’m up to bat so I shouldn’t get a hit because it would look like padding my stats.
So, the philosophy of any of you defending this is that there comes a point in a game when players should stop playing like professionals and just make an out so everyone can go home? Or maybe because some player needs to go hit the buffet before the GM closes it down?
I can NEVER remember any situation that I saw Ichiro doing something to jepardize a win in order to pad his stats. Whoever is writing this crap needs to clarify exactly how you pad your stats in a BAD way.
Ok, I agree that his main point is as you describe. I’ll drop my line of argument after this post in order that the main point doesn’t get lost.
I think the original post seems reasonable if you take out the last paragraph. It’s the last paragraph that’s more in the “don’t you insult my girlfriend” camp than it is in the “Baker’s analysis doesn’t make sense” camp. That’s what I had an issue w/.
Anyway, thanks all for discussing my (dissenting) viewpoint w/ civility and honest disagreement. I really appreciate and respect that.
The post doesn’t imply that they might be racist. It lists that as one of several so-far-unstated reasons for why they might not like Ichiro. And without knowing, we don’t know.
Not mentioning racism as a possible motivation for what are supposedly deep divides in a fractured clubhouse would ignore history.
hasn’t his manager pointed out that Ichiro’s stolen bases went down with a change how he was pitched? “It’s almost like a memo went out to all the other clubs,” manager Jim Riggleman said. “They’re all doing the same, pitching quick and slidestepping.”
I don’t think I got my point across clearly enough. Maybe I should have said that I thought it was possible that these guys were among the complainers, rather than likely.
My point was not to throw additional names out there and encourage speculation, but rather to do the opposite. With the exception of Silva (who’s already publicly threatened physical harm against his teammates), I think it’s absurd to assume that we know who the anti-Ichiro crowd comprised. We really shouldn’t be trying to link anonymous actions to players based on the extremely limited perspective we get of their characters through interviews and other crap.
I was really just trying to say that we should avoid the temptation to use this report to reinforce our likes and dislikes about certain players.*
*With the exception, again, of Carlos Silva, who is a big fat idiot.
The point of this was really to identify that the stated reason is utter crap. There’s no way that players really have a violent hatred toward Ichiro because he played hurt. We have a long history of how players respond when their teammates play through pain, including on this very team, and wanting to “beat them up” doesn’t even fall anywhere close to the expected reaction.
So, let me ask a question - if you’re a player who hates Ichiro, and you know you’re not going to be quoted publicly unless it’s as an unnamed source, why would you lie about the real cause of your hostility?
If Ichiro really is a fantastically arrogant egotist with all kinds of nasty personality traits that rub everyone the wrong way, wouldn’t you have some examples of this ready to go? Wouldn’t you be more likely to say something like “I can’t stand that punk because he mocked my paraplegic daughter” or “he pissed in my oatmeal”? Wouldn’t you have a tangible, easily presented reason for your anger for him?
According to this, they don’t. They have some BS about him playing hurt, which is obviously not the cause of the anger. So what kind of hostility could a player hold towards a teammate that they wouldn’t want revealed?
I’d say racism is at the top of that list. It might not be, and I’m not saying this is evidence that the guys hate him because he’s Japanese, but there’s no way we can ignore that as a possible motive for totally irrational and unjustified hostility.
I would guess that MLB players are generally pretty ignorant and selfish. They work in a world where education generally has no value and they skip college to play a sport. They’ve never really had to deal with anything besides throwing a ball to some place on a field and hitting said ball with a piece of wood. You don’t have to listen to too many interviews to realize that wisdom and logical thought are things that are lost on your average ballplayer. Ignorant people tend to lash out against people and things that aren’t just like them.
gotta say I’m surprised, from mid-day onwards lots of Ichi-love from the hosts and callers (well, there was the one guy who thinks it’s because ‘he didn’t show up in April or May’)
Dave,
So here’s my question.
Regardless of who is “right” and who is “wrong,” haven’t these rumblings about Ichiro and his teammates been going on for awhile now? Like, before this year? If that’s so, shouldn’t one of the first acts of the new GM be to sit Ichiro down and say “Look, you’re a great player and you’re not going anywhere, but we need to figure out how bridge this disconnect between you and the rest of the team”?
Because if it’s a combination of Ichiro’s actions and his teammate’s attitudes, replacing the other 24 guys on the roster won’t work if the 24 new guys soon feel the same way. Ichiro may be great and his teammates may be (generally speaking) crappy, but that doesn’t mean that there’s not something to the complaints besides jealousy.
WTF? I am totally unable to understand this perspective. What do you think Ichiro should be doing? Clutch strikeouts and caught stealings? Introducing the World Champions of Clutch, the 2004 New York Yankees!
These players make me ashamed to be a Mariners fan.
And the Seattle sports media don’t deserve Ichiro. Philadelphia didn’t deserve Mike Schmidt, and he was stuck with them his whole career. I’m having a hard time reconciling being a Mariners fan with Ichiro being my favorite player, because for his sake, I want him to go someplace where he can win and is appreciated and doesn’t take crap from ignorant writers and fans who just make shit up like the grizzled old “pads his stats selfish doesn’t play for the team” line of hooey that every great player on a bad team has been subjected to for as long as morons have watched baseball and pretended to know something about it. But as a Mariners fan, if he left I would despair.
bermanator, the only rumblings I’ve seen in the past have been from sportswriters who clearly dislike Ichiro. If he has a history of not gettin along with the team, how come we never hear anything more than rumblings, anyway? Surely some ex-teammate would feel he could safely express his opinion.
If his teammates don’t like him, well. I don’t think Reggie Jackson’s teammates liked him much. Roger Clemens. Kobe Bryant. Terrell Owens. Build a good team, and these things stop being a problem. And if you go ahead and confront your star player about the problem, you still haven’t gone one step toward building a good team: you’ve just taken sides, and you’ve probably taken the side of the guys who suck.
Jason Puckett weighs in from the clubhouse, on the clubhouse. Oddly, he didn’t report there was a near-melee.
Paraphrasing here, yes he thinks there is a little bit of jealousy, and what happens in every clubhouse in the league where there is the one marquee superstar– frustrations boil over and it focuses on the one guy who gets the breaks — just like you see in jr high, high school, college… and there is the added layer of players thinking the Japanese players get extras, such as the translators
he thinks the last two years there’s been so much turnover with rent-a-players, young players, and a losing team– no continuity, no leadership, the relationships that were once there are mostly gone. When Ichiro first got here there were personalities that were bigger than his, that deflected that sort of criticisms. He doesn’t have the relationships now as he had with Cameron, Boone, Bone, but that is the transition of the team.
He is exactly like Raul, they are both focused– doing stretches, extra fielding, extra hitting — so locked in to what they are doing before the game, not sitting around on the sofa joking around.
Puckett is also baffled by this perception that because Ichiro achieves his numbers that he is somehow selfish. Isn’t that what every ballplayer is trying to do? Didn’t they try to get Felix his 200th inning last night?
The way most of his teammates hit, he is more likely to be struck by lightning than a punch.
Amen, Scraps. I think this is a new thing, or at least to the extent it’s going public, it’s a new thing. I’m going to be the skunk at the garden party here and blame Baker. Whatever his good points, Baker’s arrival seems to coincide with a bunch of clubhouse discord, and Baker seems to be the one always getting the scoops on the soap operas.
I’m going to say it’s my theory that Baker, skillfully exploiting guys frustrated with a stinker of a season, has turned the ordinary jealousies and petty squabbles of any workplace into a two-bit Lifetime Network miniseries.
What is with you guys and Ichiro? If ANYONE says anything negative about him you guys flip out.
Scraps, that’s an interesting case study of athletes. Reggie and TO had teammates who didn’t like them because they had massive egos. Roger Clemens got special treatment in Houston (and I think New York) about being able to leave the team when he wasn’t pitching. Kobe forced Shaq out of town. In all of those cases, they wound up on teams where the owners acknowledge the special treatment and said, “That’s how it is — deal with it.”
I don’t think in any of those cases there was a sense that the superstar was “right” and the teammates who grumbled were “wrong” (in the Kobe case especially, the CW was the opposite). It was just “that’s the way it is.”
But also, in all of those cases the conflicts were out in the open. Sometimes those are easier to deal with than the ones that are bubbling under the surface. If there’s a perception, for example, that Ichiro has a special relationship with the ownership group, that’s going to be a problem even if the M’s get a whole new roster in the offseason.
@ Smoothdkarr:
If you don’t mind me asking, what is the negative thing that people are saying about Ichiro? Do you think that they have good reasons for saying this? If you are going to accuse people here of “flipping out” and otherwise acting irrationally, you ought to demonstrate why you think that behavior is irrational.
What is it with you guys who can’t stand to see anyone defend Ichiro from unsupported charges and bullshit? If anyone says anything rational you just dismiss them with baseless generalities and motive-bashing. Don’t you know how to argue like an adult?
I love how the idea that Ichiro is selfish, just plays for his stats, and makes his teammates want to physically attack him is apparently trivial — “saying anything negative,” as though all someone had said was that he’s a lousy dresser, or slouches when he walks, or doesn’t know much about turnip farming.
Bottom line:
has Ichiro’s efforts helped his team to win?
I can build a case that they have.
Can someone build a case that they haven’t? If not, then they’re not justified in criticizing him, are they?
I can not find the article that referred to this, but I thought I read a quote from Ichiro talking about quitting if he ever got a beer-belly and couldn’t see his feet. I think this was in response to a question regarding his stretching and other conditioning practices.
I remember thinking that might not go over too well with his weight-challenged team mates…
googling now…
Assuming you’re right, why is it Ichiro’s problem to solve?
If he’s just keeping to himself and playing really excellent baseball, is it his job to make the other players now hate him for that?
If anything, the new GM should sit the new Manager does sand say “Keep your players in line.”
Has anyone actually met Ichiro and spoken to him? Do you have a feeling for what he’s like to be around? The three people I know that have (two Japanese and one American) have all had the same opinion, “He’s an arrogant jerk”.
I don’t know if it’s true, but if so, it might have some bearing on his popularity in the clubhouse.
On the other hand, it wouldn’t surprise me if every clubhouse in baseball (including the Mariners) is filled with arrogant jerks with just a few exceptions - so it might not be notable…
Only if they make him pull the bus.
I’ve said this before but those 70s Yankees teams didn’t appear to like each other. They would get into fistfights with each other ON TELEVISION. Then when the whistle blew (first pitch was thrown out, whatever), they just went out and kicked your $#$##$# on the field where it counts, and all that other stuff was forgotten. If we were WINNING 100 games instead of LOSING 100 games nobody would notice this stuff or if they did would not care.
I don’t have a problem believing Ichiro is an arrogant jerk — or a part-time arrogant jerk — or that he comes off as an arrogant jerk to people who meet him once. He is certainly extremely, calmly confident, apparently unflappable, centered, and evidently unconcerned with other people’s opinions. If that isn’t arrogance, it’s something like it; at the same time, it’s hard to argue that he hasn’t earned his arrogance. In any case, it ought to be irrelevant to a team of professionals, if that’s the only valid complaint to be made about him.
I was talking to some of the sport camera crew for Fuji TV station during the 2002 olympics and they never mentioned him being a jerk, only that they questioned his sexual orientation before( which was proved when some tabloid used a hot girl to pick him up, which resulted in his wife getting angry).
It is usual for japanese, especially atheletes to have a very horizontal hierarchy where the ’senpai’ or veterans can be very condescending to the ‘kohai’ or those with less experience.
I think his stand-offish behavior comes from years of being hounded by the press and fans.
He has revealed his humor on japanese shows often, once claiming he had a fetish for girl’s socks ( he was talking to a gravure idol at the tiem).
You respect the Ichiro and god help you if you ever tried to knock him out. Because the first person to lay a finger on Ichiro would be murdered by a angry mob of Mariners fans and blog readers.
Joe Blanton was almost to first to receive this punishment, but Mr. Ellison, bless his heart, decided “I’ll take care of this Ichiro”.
But in all seriousness, I have no idea what to believe. RRS says the Clubhouse is fine and the media says its not. Considering RRS is in the clubhouse more than the media I am going to have to lead towards his statement.
Maybe the Mariners just get grumpy when the Media is around
;). I don’t know, I know this season is a disaster and I can’t wait for some Bus’s to drive on out of town, but slashed tires and a punctured gas tank.
There have been more than a few reports over the years that various teammates, coaches, managers, media members, etc. consider Ichiro a selfish player to varying degrees. And there certainly have been instances watching the guy play that he is making decisions for personal success rather than for winning that game. Based on that, I don’t think everything be chalked up to just losing and/or personal prejudice and/or jealousy.
such as?
such as?
(I crossed out the part that doesn’t matter.)
Seriously, people keep saying stuff like this in comments when Ichiro’s alleged selfishness is asserted, but they just about never support it.
Also, a huge band of idiots getting together to agree about their biases doesn’t validate their claims. See the KKK.
If you want to support your assertions, go right ahead. Pointing to some other person whose opinion we shouldn’t care about isn’t going to make me care about your opinion any more than I do.
Is this the same story as was being told when it was decided to let Junior go?
We love him, he’s the best…the most exciting player in baseball and–what?
We’re not going to keep him?
Oh, OK…
Well, have we ever mentioned the special treatment he gets? About how petulant he gets about other players having fans… About how we built this whole new ballpark for him and he whines about how it will impact his homerun numbers?
He’s really a selfish jerk and we’re probably better off without him.
We may be seeing the groundwork for an early Ichiro exit strategy…and my nightmare of seeing him in pinstripes–a fear I thought the new contract had erased–is coming back.
I have no doubt that the stories of Junior were true–they simply didn’t matter while he was helping us try to win…and I think he always helped us try to win. It must have been a pain in the ass for teammates to deal with…but suck it up and start playing like Junior and you’ll get your butt kissed too!
Same with Ichiro. Is he different, is he getting special treatment, is he not “one of the boys”? I have no doubt that all that’s true…but, all of this crazy “selfish player” nonsense aside, I think Ichiro has always helped us try to win.
And if the other players think that he’s a pain in the ass to deal with…then suck it up, and do what Ichiro does to help the team try to win and you’ll get your butt kissed too…
If Michael Jordan can put up with Dennis Rodman, then there isn’t a Mariner in that clubhouse that shouldn’t figure out how to thrive with Ichiro as a teammate.
At what point are you going to change the name of this website from ussmariner.com to ussichiro.com?
You guys have good objective opinions about every subject except when it comes to Ichiro. A negative comment about Ichiro usually is followed by 2 or 3 posts blasting whoever said or wrote the negative comments; however, if the exact same thing was said about Carlos Silva for example this would be just another reason of why he was a terrible signing (which he was) and there would be no defense.
If the Mariners can get 2 or 3 good prospects in a trade this off-season (not saying they could)how is that not a good idea? The chances of contending in the next 2 - 3 years is fairly low at which point Ichiro will clearly be on the decline, even though I know players like him age well, still he won’t be the same player anymore.
Sure the guys a good player, but this sites love affair is to the point where when there is a post about Ichiro I have to skip it and move to the next…. which is what I’m sure about 20 of you are going to tell me to do on this one.
I’ll go do that right now.
Dennis Rodman is the one-man refutation of the vast importance of chemistry.
Followed by several commenters criticizing the defending of Ichiro without actually addressing the criticism or its refutation.
Which is more boring? Repeated defenses of Ichiro from stupid attacks, or repeated motive-bashing of the site’s authors by commenters who don’t want to actually discuss the post?
FYI: Wasn’t bashing the authors.
Well played, Derek. Well played.
And of course people do criticize Ichiro here. Dave has many times criticized Ichiro’s throwing arm. Many people here have criticized Ichiro’s bunt choices, and not just the mind-readers who think it says something about Ichiro’s selfishness, but reasonable people who think it’s often a bad strategy.
This point will be ignored.
wallywwu, accusing the authors of being blind Ichiro-worshipers and hypocrites (per your second paragraph) isn’t bashing them?
What are the legitimate criticisms of Ichiro as a results-based performer?
That he gets hits, even when the game is not on the line? That’s something bad?
That he steals bases only when he can? Again–is the better option for him to be thrown out more?
That he keeps to a strict regimen that works for him? What is that other than a personality conflict?
That he doesn’t dive for every ball? And the downside to that is…no triples and no season ending Mike Morse-esque injuries?
That he is still trying to do what he can as a hitter and a fielder to be successful, rather than collapsing in frustration and malaise like everyone else on the team does as the team fails to be competitive for another year? He can’t play every position and do every job–although, he HAS offered to do just that…
I think this site, above all sites, is EXACTLY where a clear-headed obsession with what Ichiro does is undeniably justified.
It isn’t that Ichiro is above criticism–it’s just that his performance on the field is worthy of precious little deserved criticism.
And there aren’t any other Mariners who you can say that about.
That, and he has very good taste in beer. That shouldn’t be overlooked.
I swear, if someone accused Ichiro of eating kittens, and Dave pointed out there was no evidence that Ichiro ate kittens, and Derek noted that unsourced accusations of kitten-eating were shoddy journalism, two commenters would drop in to say Jeez you can’t say anything about Ichiro without you guys getting worked up! Why, if it were Silva who was accused of cat-eating, all you’d say is well, he does have a big gut. Etc.
I agree with Wallywwu. Scraps, “stupid attacks” is an opinion and also a conclusion not inviting much room for discussion.
I’ve seen Silva coughing up fur.
I have to agree with mironos: The bad feelings directed at Ichiro strikes me as too unique and too persistent to dismiss.
I don’t find the alternative theories that have been proposed persuasive. Is Ichiro hated because he’s overpaid? There are overpaid players on every team in the Majors, and none of them seem to rile their teammates to this extent. Is it racism? Why have we not heard of this kind of animus directed at other Japanese (or, for that matter, Asian) players? The negativity surrounding Ichiro seems truly sui generis, and that makes me think that there’s probably something to it.
Sure, it’s possible that a large portion of the Mariners clubhouse are envious bigots; but this can’t possibly be the most plausible theory.
I’m also disturbed by how many people seem to think that Silva must be an unreliable source simply because he’s a bad pitcher. Yes, Silva is a terrible starting pitcher. He has a 6.46ERA. But but none of that bears on his personal integrity or the significance of his feelings about his teammates.
I love how a discussion about some anonymous cowards wanting to physically abuse Ichiro ended up as a complaint that the people here are defending him.
And by “love” I mean “God, people are stupid.”
I swear, if Ichiro committed a serious crime and was found guilty in a court of law, and a writer wrote an article condemning Ichiro’s actions, and Dave wrote a piece defending him, and someone like me asked “why is anyone that has a negative comment about Ichiro attacked by this blog?”, scraps or someone else would accuse me of accusing the blog of “no one can say anything negative about Ichiro without you guys getting worked up”.
dang, would you accept “irrational, unsupported attacks”?
Wow I didn’t think my stupid post would cause so much anger. All I meant was that Ichiro is the one subject on here that doesn’t seem to be too objective. There I said it.
And, wallywwu, I challenge that assessment.
From the same metrics that this site uses to judge all players, there are reasons to support the positive response given here to Ichiro.
Can you make a case for that support being irrational? Can you make a case using the metrics championed by this site that Ichiro is not deserving of the positive response he gets here?
Put another way, “Maybe the reason that so many people say that Scarlett Johansson is hot is because she is?”
dang, are you listening to yourself? You are basically saying that if you said A, I or someone else would come along and accuse you of saying… A. Do I need to spell out why that’s not a parallel to the point I made?
I’ve seen Silva coughing up fur.
I believe that’s actually how he threw out his back originally.
That thing I said would be ignored up there? The comment I made timestamped 4:20 PM? Notice that dang and wallywwu have both already ignored it, repeating the Ichiro-can’t-be-criticized line.
Would either of you care to at least argue with it?
Wow, just when you thought this season could not get any worse, it does so with these reports of teammates who supposedly wanted to physically attack Ichiro. What a horror show.
I know that some people think it’s Silva given his past comments and Baker says that person would “shock you,” but there is only one logical conclusion as to whom the ringleader of these anti-Ichiro mob is.
It is none other than … WFB!
I would pay good money to see WFB and Ichiro! throw down in a cage.
The point is that one side says “you are not objective regarding Ichiro”. The blog response is “you are not objective about our objectivity regarding Ichiro”.
“I have no doubt that the stories of Junior were true–they simply didn’t matter while he was helping us try to win…and I think he always helped us try to win.”
I was going to say something pretty much along those lines.
I’ve been reading through all these rather soap opera-ish comments. Meanwhile, I’ve been trying to remember the statistical formula for evaluating a player’s “chemistry” or “likeability” or whatever. Then I remembered: I buy tickets and support advertisers to watch baseball players play baseball.
As far as what they are like as people, I don’t know, I don’t care and it doesn’t affect me. As I’ve often said after a Mariners win, “Twenty five people I don’t know and will never meet had a good day at work and I’m happy.”
I used to have a lot of respect for Gas on KJR, but as he was talking about this story, he said something like “Jose Guillen was tagged by the players as a leader. Next time (the M’s) have a player like Guillen, maybe they will reconsider releasing him.” Perhaps Gas didn’t notice Guillen’s outburst against his new teammates, calling them…was it babies? See ‘the media and Jose Guillen’ and ‘proven chemistry guru Guillen harming chemistry’ Anyway, I agree with much of what is being said here, whatever is going on in that clubhouse against ICHIRO is a shame. Some weird psychology thing, á la Gomez’s wonderful James quote. Also…It is none other than … WFB!
lol
Silva needs to lose 45 lbs….then maybe his back won’t be too sore to pitch. When your fat….you have to perform or you better shut up.
You had a lot of respect for Gas and because he says something you disagree with you no longer have respect for him?
Few other reasons why teammates/some fans might hate Ichiro and why he is considered “selfish”:
1) there has been several documented reports of how Ichiro did not agree to play CF in his first few seasons here (after Cammy was gone). Even USSM was endoring how more valuble Ichiro will be to the team if he plays CF, but he just said No. And finally after 6 years of prodding and a new 90 mil $ contract, he agreed last year; and after 1.5 years, he is back to RF. And there are documented reports on how happy he was to go back to RF (even though he is less valuable to the team in RF)
2) there is documented evidence of his disapproval to play anywhere in the lineup other than hit leadoff; some of his managers tried to ask him to bat at #3 on certain days, but the guy would just not agree to it easily. And he will publicly state that he wants to hit leadoff (very similar to how Jose Lopez keeps on saying that he does not want to play 1B currently - but Lopez is not paid 18 million $ and is neither considered a “franchise icon” or “superstar”)
Ichiro has supreme level of talent, is a iconic player, he brings in a LOT OF REVENUE for this crappy team; but he is not a selfless player who puts the team first. Stats and meaningless records like 8 consecutive 200 hit seasons matter to him a big deal; if the team is winning and in contention its a different story. But when the team is playing this crappy overall and is losing 100 games, who the heck cares about 8 consecutive 200 hit seasons?????? Only ichiro.
And?
Me. As a fan of this team, it’s nice to have at least one exciting thing to think about this season. He has a record. That is what makes baseball great, records and stats and all the fun number stuff.
Oh, and Felix’s grand slam, that was another thing to be excited about this year.
Congrats Ichiro for doing something no one else in nearly 100 years could do. Your amazing!
RE: dang: That’s not entirely correct. He doesn’t have all of the facts, he was operating under old assumptions, carried on by much of Seattle that Guillen was a good clubhouse guy. We now have evidance that he isn’t, or at least isn’t if his team is under .500 and he’s not hitting .300. I realize now that this may have been a bit of a rash judgement, but it just struck me weirdly as an uninformed statement. Saying that it would be better to spend $$ on Guillen rather than Silva is debatable, but Guillen’s recent track record on a losing team might indicate that he would not be a great influence on the worst team in baseball. Finally, I never said that I no longer have respect for him, it sort of took a little dip after his comments. Gas has said a great many things that I disagree with, but don’t think that just because he said something like that, I now hate him.
a fan thrilled to see someone finally on base, and desperately hoping to see some one else in the line up bat him in?
This is utterly ridiculous, and embarrassing as well, being a Mariners fan. What this whole issue is about is not that Ichiro is selfish or arrogant, or the truth of any of his alleged character flaws. No, this isn’t really about Ichiro at all; it’s about some insane, boneheaded Unknown Mariner Player who nearly got into a fistfight because Ichiro is stand-offish, played hurt and tried hard when games were already decided (and aren’t the last two good things?). This unknown player’s reasoning is just as logical as some guy cutting me off in traffic, so I follow him home and brutally murder him in front of his family. Why anyone here would criticize defending Ichiro here is beyond me, because we are defending Ichiro from COMPLETE AND TOTAL MADNESS.
If I had to speculate, then I’d say that a good many players went into this season drinking Bill Bavasi’s kool-aid, and believed this team was going to contend. Well, it was pretty clear after the first month or so that this season was in the toilet, and then McLaren, Bavasi, Sexson and Vidro were all shown the door. It wouldn’t surprise me that a few of our srappiest players, instead than look themselves in the mirror and admit their own failure, would rather focus the blame elsewhere. And throughout the history of baseball horrible teams have had the knack of blaming their best players for the poor achievement of the team. So, as is human nature, unknown crappy player cast his resentment not at himself but at the the shy, eccentric, tiny Japanese guy who is also the star of the team.
I’m not going to play the race card here, but isn’t it TOTALLY RESPONSIBLE to wonder in this horrible situation would have occurred if Ichiro still stretched by himself and was always supremely confident and played hurt and still played hard when it didn’t matter, but that his name was Mike Smith and he went out for beers with his teammates after games and played practical jokes? I’m not sure, but evwn if race is the central motivating factor here I still believe this whole thing (if Baker’s report is 100% true, which I sort of doubt) is completely insane. If we ever find out who this mystery player is, then I don’t care who he is, even if it’s King Felix…..I don’t want that player on the Mariners for a second longer.
This whole mess just makes me sick; Ichiro doesn’t deserve it, the Mariner organization doesn’t deserve it, and we M’s fans don’t deserve it either.
Where have you gone Edgar Martinez?…….
I wrote 3 paras - everyone is jumping on the last one. What about the first 2? What arguments are you going to bring in to support Ichiro on those 2 well known positions of Ichiro?
Few other reasons why teammates/some fans might hate Ichiro and why he is considered “selfish”:
1) there has been several documented reports of how Ichiro did not agree to play CF in his first few seasons here (after Cammy was gone). Even USSM was endoring how more valuble Ichiro will be to the team if he plays CF, but he just said No. And finally after 6 years of prodding and a new 90 mil $ contract, he agreed last year; and after 1.5 years, he is back to RF. And there are documented reports on how happy he was to go back to RF (even though he is less valuable to the team in RF)
2) there is documented evidence of his disapproval to play anywhere in the lineup other than hit leadoff; some of his managers tried to ask him to bat at #3 on certain days, but the guy would just not agree to it easily. And he will publicly state that he wants to hit leadoff (very similar to how Jose Lopez keeps on saying that he does not want to play 1B currently - but Lopez is not paid 18 million $ and is neither considered a “franchise icon” or “superstar”)
Raul Ibanez has refused to DH despite being the worst defensive outfielder in franchise history - how is that not selfish? Why aren’t you going after him?
2) But Ichiro thinks he has the most value hitting first, and I don’t think anyone else in this orginization is any smarter than Ichiro. Can you dispute that?
That’s seriously your support for a “selfish” label? That he wants to play his position and bat his slot so that he can do his best? THAT ASSHOLE.
You’ve got people here actually complaining that he tries to get hits!
What kind of a jerk baseball player tries to get hits? The nerve.
Hm. Article about players wanting to physically assault Ichiro. What kind of a person wants to make the issue about Ichiro being selfish? Seriously.
It’s like reading an article about a wife beater and deciding that it needed to be pointed out that she was a bad cook.
Excellent point
I like USSIchiro.com! Best thing to come out of this thread.
As far as the “you guys are blind Ichiro fanboys and aren’t objective regarding him”, my only response is a gigantic yawn.
We’ve had the same thing said in regards to Doyle, and Felix, along with other players that I’m sure exist but are escaping me at the moment.
I get so tired of this Crap every time we have one of these threads on USSM!
Wait… he did? I know he’s stated that he takes pride in his defense and so on, but sources confirmed that he refused to DH?
He must be pissed about DHing these last few weeks.
Ibanez has refused to be a regular DH in the same way that Ichiro has refused to play CF. They both have said that they would do what the team asks them to while still making their preference abundantly clear.
One point I immediately thought of in regards to this story that I haven’t seen addressed: if the threat of physical violence against a teammate was known, then why in god’s name wasn’t that player punished/released? If this happened back in April/May, doesn’t it make Ichiro’s season even that much more impressive?
How well would any of us work with the looming thought of violence by those who I am supposed to be on the same team with? Good god! Could you imagine having to worry about that every day going to work, that some jealous buffoon is going to attack you because you are successful at what you do?
It’s apparent there are commenters in this thread who are either racist or the same type of haters that want to hurt Ichiro. How exactly do you criticize a guy like Ichiro, a guy who goes out every single day and kills it, despite being on the worst run franchise in all of baseball? But players who truly suck like Silva, and Washburn, and the others you are ok with?
In response to you, Mike Snow, Ichiro refused to play CF? Are you sure about that one, guy? Are you sure it wasn’t the manager making the move, and shifting Ichiro back to RF?
Ichiro made his ‘preference abundantly clear’? Can you please back this up with specific references or kindly retract your statement as the bald-faced lie it is?
Axtell, you’ve misunderstood what I wrote completely. Gomez pointed out that Ibanez has been a DH despite “refusing” to DH, I made the same point about Ichiro and CF. And McLaren himself said when he made the move back that RF was clearly Ichiro’s preference.
Ichiro refused to move to CF when they first had Winn out there and it was really rocky those first months. I believe this has come out since, though I don’t have a cite on me. He wanted at least a full off-season to prepare, and later when he got that, he played center and didn’t kvetch about it.
Now, we can argue that refusing to move mid-season to center but being happy about moving to right mid-season is a jerk move. But I think he felt right was his natural position, he’d been there for many years, and didn’t want to move to center full-time without adequate prep. I don’t see that as too selfish, especially considering that he did move later and did it well.
I’ve been parsing the words pretty carefully and trying to remember the season. In mid-May, the M’s had gone from a disappointing April completely down the drain, losing six straight and eleven out of twelve. The team was getting no production out of DH, 1B, C or RF, so the GM put the blame on Greg Norton. The manager had demonstrated that he had no ability to right the ship. If you were a Mariner who cared, you were intensely frustrated.
Different people express their frustration in different ways. Some throw chairs or put their fists through walls. Some decide to remember that next time up they should do something different and work on that.
If you’re one of the first kind and you see Ichiro, who in my observation is of the second kind, and you can’t really speak to him or understand what he’s thinking, and you’re frustrated because you bought the front office’s story that we were contenders this year, and you want everyone to react to games the way you do, and you see Ichiro not doing that, I can understand you getting angry. I am not justifying it, but I am understanding it. And maybe you say something to someone that “one clubhouse source” overhears. Something really stupid in your frustration like “I’d like to punch out Ichiro.” I imagine you say it far away from Ichiro, far away from any circumstance where you could in fact punch out Ichiro, but you know in your heart of hearts that punching out Ichiro is career-suicide on so many levels it’s not funny.
I can also imagine frustrated players expressing, to someone in the clubhouse, a dislike of Ichiro. Those same players who, when he does something to win a game, will be high-fiving him. People are hypocrites, and baseball players are people. Ichiro, like Ted Williams, is probably not everyone’s cup of tea.
Much ado about nothing.
Where have you gone Jay Buhner?…..
Actually, Ichiro did move to center mid-season because Reed got hurt and they had no other options at that point. But I remember that he said something along the lines of what Derek’s remembering.
What a dirty tempest in an unwashed tepot THIS story is!
Baker is a sportwriter, and therefore can be assumed, until proven otherwise, to be a sneaky, cranky, backstabbing shit. Here, he has reached no more than the level of a typical NY Post column.
It is all in good fun.
It’s really no big deal,…
…so I suggest surrounding the Seattle Times building as a mob; tar and feathering him; and riding him out of town on a rail.
Free South Pacific will be served to all mobbers, who can use the empties (there will be no extras after this season) to attempt to pelt said reporter on his pin head.
This is the quote that might have rubbed Silva the wrong way (from http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mariners/2004315366_ichiro30.html
)
“Speed is a very important skill in my game, but more than that, if the day ever comes where I start getting a gut, that’s the day I will quit baseball,” he said.
When that statement is greeted with a laugh by both the reporter and Barron — Ichiro’s diabolically low body-fat measurement is the stuff of legend — he interjects quickly, “That was actually not a joke. I think that’s important.
“Baseball and golf are the only sports where the athletes can have a gut and still play well. None of the other sports is like that except perhaps sumo, which is a special case.
“I really don’t like the fact that baseball has that image. That’s why it’s important for me not to fall into that image.”
Asked if it embarrasses him to see portly, out-of-shape players, he replied, with an amused glint, “I can’t say that, because there’s people like that that are actually out there.”