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	<title>Comments on: ESPN reports Teixeira to Yanks</title>
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	<description>Seattle Mariners and general baseball discussion with David Cameron and Derek Zumsteg</description>
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		<title>By: msb</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/23/espn-reports-teixeira-to-yanks/comment-page-2/#comment-308154</link>
		<dc:creator>msb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 16:32:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=6934#comment-308154</guid>
		<description>fwiw, the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/24/sports/baseball/24yankees.html?_r=2&amp;ref=baseball&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;NYT&lt;/a&gt; thinks even the Yanks may cut payroll by trading Matsui or Swisher ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fwiw, the <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/24/sports/baseball/24yankees.html?_r=2&amp;ref=baseball" rel="nofollow">NYT</a> thinks even the Yanks may cut payroll by trading Matsui or Swisher &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Paul B</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/23/espn-reports-teixeira-to-yanks/comment-page-2/#comment-308150</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:16:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=6934#comment-308150</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;No kidding. In New York and Boston they also have to compete every year. If baseball in those cities doesn’t matter, MLB doesn’t matter.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Headline:

Tampa and Philly qualify for World Series:  MLB Shuts Down all Operations</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>No kidding. In New York and Boston they also have to compete every year. If baseball in those cities doesn’t matter, MLB doesn’t matter.</p></blockquote>
<p>Headline:</p>
<p>Tampa and Philly qualify for World Series:  MLB Shuts Down all Operations</p>
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		<title>By: CCW</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/23/espn-reports-teixeira-to-yanks/comment-page-2/#comment-308149</link>
		<dc:creator>CCW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=6934#comment-308149</guid>
		<description>It sure is nice to have a team to hate as much as this makes me hate the Yankees.  Even if the M&#039;s aren&#039;t worth watching, there&#039;s always another game going on where my rooting interest is strong...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It sure is nice to have a team to hate as much as this makes me hate the Yankees.  Even if the M&#8217;s aren&#8217;t worth watching, there&#8217;s always another game going on where my rooting interest is strong&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: hbobrien</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/23/espn-reports-teixeira-to-yanks/comment-page-2/#comment-308148</link>
		<dc:creator>hbobrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 12:18:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=6934#comment-308148</guid>
		<description>dcmarinerfan: First, thanks for the work. So I&#039;d say (in my own subjective way), that while pay is coupled to performance, it&#039;s only loosely so.  I find it interesting that in your ten-year sample, average and median payroll rank is fairly close. (when billg and I walk in to a bar, net worth &lt;i&gt;isn&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; :) )

To put it a different way -- Being in the top third of payroll obviously gives a team an advantage.  But rank &lt;i&gt;within&lt;/i&gt; that top third (notably the bleeding edge at the top) doesn&#039;t appear to have much effect (or marginal advantage). &quot;Necessary but not sufficient,&quot; to use a piece of jargon.

Or, to put it yet a different way: George Steinbrenner -- the only person in NY to pay full retail for &lt;i&gt;everything&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dcmarinerfan: First, thanks for the work. So I&#8217;d say (in my own subjective way), that while pay is coupled to performance, it&#8217;s only loosely so.  I find it interesting that in your ten-year sample, average and median payroll rank is fairly close. (when billg and I walk in to a bar, net worth <i>isn&#8217;t</i> <img src='http://ussmariner.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  )</p>
<p>To put it a different way &#8212; Being in the top third of payroll obviously gives a team an advantage.  But rank <i>within</i> that top third (notably the bleeding edge at the top) doesn&#8217;t appear to have much effect (or marginal advantage). &#8220;Necessary but not sufficient,&#8221; to use a piece of jargon.</p>
<p>Or, to put it yet a different way: George Steinbrenner &#8212; the only person in NY to pay full retail for <i>everything</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: dcmarinerfan</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/23/espn-reports-teixeira-to-yanks/comment-page-2/#comment-308147</link>
		<dc:creator>dcmarinerfan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:07:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=6934#comment-308147</guid>
		<description>Since I&#039;m bored, and, since I&#039;ve got nothing to do while I wait for my flight to head back home for Christmas, and since people have asked, here&#039;s data...

2008 MLB Division Winners / Payroll rank in division / Payroll rank in baseball
TB / 5 / 29
CWS / 2 / 5
ANA / 1 / 6
PHI / 3 / 13
CHC / 1 / 7
LAD / 1 / 8

2007
BOS / 2 / 2
CLE / 5 / 23
ANA / 1 / 5
PHI / 3 / 14
CHC / 1 / 8
ARI / 5 / 26

So on and so forth, as to save space...here are the conclusions for the last &lt;strong&gt;10&lt;/strong&gt; years

Average Division Winner payroll rank within division: 2.083/5 (nine times in ten years, a team with the lowest payroll in its division has won the division)

Average Playoff Team (incl. wild cards) payroll rank in MLB: 10.375/30

Average Number of Teams in the playoffs per year that had a payroll in the bottom 1/2 of MLB: 1.9 teams (24%)

Average Number of Teams in the playoffs per year that had a payroll in the bottom 2/3 of MLB: 3.1 teams (39%)

Average World Series Winner payroll rank in MLB: 8.6 (1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 8th, five times outside the top 10, never below 20th)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since I&#8217;m bored, and, since I&#8217;ve got nothing to do while I wait for my flight to head back home for Christmas, and since people have asked, here&#8217;s data&#8230;</p>
<p>2008 MLB Division Winners / Payroll rank in division / Payroll rank in baseball<br />
TB / 5 / 29<br />
CWS / 2 / 5<br />
ANA / 1 / 6<br />
PHI / 3 / 13<br />
CHC / 1 / 7<br />
LAD / 1 / 8</p>
<p>2007<br />
BOS / 2 / 2<br />
CLE / 5 / 23<br />
ANA / 1 / 5<br />
PHI / 3 / 14<br />
CHC / 1 / 8<br />
ARI / 5 / 26</p>
<p>So on and so forth, as to save space&#8230;here are the conclusions for the last <strong>10</strong> years</p>
<p>Average Division Winner payroll rank within division: 2.083/5 (nine times in ten years, a team with the lowest payroll in its division has won the division)</p>
<p>Average Playoff Team (incl. wild cards) payroll rank in MLB: 10.375/30</p>
<p>Average Number of Teams in the playoffs per year that had a payroll in the bottom 1/2 of MLB: 1.9 teams (24%)</p>
<p>Average Number of Teams in the playoffs per year that had a payroll in the bottom 2/3 of MLB: 3.1 teams (39%)</p>
<p>Average World Series Winner payroll rank in MLB: 8.6 (1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 8th, five times outside the top 10, never below 20th)</p>
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		<title>By: joser</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/23/espn-reports-teixeira-to-yanks/comment-page-2/#comment-308146</link>
		<dc:creator>joser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=6934#comment-308146</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
Of course the MLBPA would scream bloody murder, but one thing I like about this idea is that it would only penalize the team(s) getting WAY out of proportion to the rest of baseball. 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Well, the way to get the MLBPA on board is to transfer the penalty money from the overspending teams to the underspending ones, and &lt;i&gt;require that money be spent on payroll&lt;/i&gt;.  They should be doing this now with the luxury tax and revenue sharing, so that an evil SOB like Loria can&#039;t field a team that costs less than the money the other teams are giving him and pocket the difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
Of course the MLBPA would scream bloody murder, but one thing I like about this idea is that it would only penalize the team(s) getting WAY out of proportion to the rest of baseball.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, the way to get the MLBPA on board is to transfer the penalty money from the overspending teams to the underspending ones, and <i>require that money be spent on payroll</i>.  They should be doing this now with the luxury tax and revenue sharing, so that an evil SOB like Loria can&#8217;t field a team that costs less than the money the other teams are giving him and pocket the difference.</p>
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		<title>By: joser</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/23/espn-reports-teixeira-to-yanks/comment-page-2/#comment-308145</link>
		<dc:creator>joser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:50:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=6934#comment-308145</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know, when NY and Boston are playing in and winning every WS I&#039;ll start to worry.  As it is, over the past 9 seasons (going back to the last time the Yankees won in 2000), only three teams have shown up more than once in the WS (Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals) and only Boston has won twice. So 18 slots and 14 different teams.  That&#039;s better parity than baseball saw in the 90s, when Atlanta took 5, the Yankees 3, and Cleveland and Toronto each took 2 -- only 10 teams out of 18 
available slots (none in 1994).

In a lot of ways New York already has a third team: it&#039;s called the Red Sox.  The NY Times reports on it like it&#039;s a local team -- and why not: they own 17% of it (though they may be tempted to sell that given everything that&#039;s going on with the economy and newspapers).  And it&#039;s not hard to find Red Sox fans in the five boroughs (and, like many people wearing Red Sox gear in Seattle, plenty of them have never gotten mail at an address anywhere in Massachusetts).

With regard to payroll efficiency, this is something I hope one of the sites like Fangraphs or baseballprojection.com starts tracking.  The latter is already calculating the projected worth on a per-player basis, and the former could start since they have wOBA and UZR.  They just have to hook up with Cot&#039;s to collect the actual payroll data to figure out which teams are over- or under- paying the most.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know, when NY and Boston are playing in and winning every WS I&#8217;ll start to worry.  As it is, over the past 9 seasons (going back to the last time the Yankees won in 2000), only three teams have shown up more than once in the WS (Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals) and only Boston has won twice. So 18 slots and 14 different teams.  That&#8217;s better parity than baseball saw in the 90s, when Atlanta took 5, the Yankees 3, and Cleveland and Toronto each took 2 &#8212; only 10 teams out of 18<br />
available slots (none in 1994).</p>
<p>In a lot of ways New York already has a third team: it&#8217;s called the Red Sox.  The NY Times reports on it like it&#8217;s a local team &#8212; and why not: they own 17% of it (though they may be tempted to sell that given everything that&#8217;s going on with the economy and newspapers).  And it&#8217;s not hard to find Red Sox fans in the five boroughs (and, like many people wearing Red Sox gear in Seattle, plenty of them have never gotten mail at an address anywhere in Massachusetts).</p>
<p>With regard to payroll efficiency, this is something I hope one of the sites like Fangraphs or baseballprojection.com starts tracking.  The latter is already calculating the projected worth on a per-player basis, and the former could start since they have wOBA and UZR.  They just have to hook up with Cot&#8217;s to collect the actual payroll data to figure out which teams are over- or under- paying the most.</p>
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		<title>By: hbobrien</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/23/espn-reports-teixeira-to-yanks/comment-page-2/#comment-308144</link>
		<dc:creator>hbobrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=6934#comment-308144</guid>
		<description>DMZ:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The New York area should have three, four teams (and they’d still do better than the worst franchises economically). That’s the equalizer.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Force the Dodgers and the Giants back to NY, that&#039;ll do the trick. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DMZ:</p>
<blockquote><p>The New York area should have three, four teams (and they’d still do better than the worst franchises economically). That’s the equalizer.</p></blockquote>
<p>Force the Dodgers and the Giants back to NY, that&#8217;ll do the trick. <img src='http://ussmariner.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: hbobrien</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/23/espn-reports-teixeira-to-yanks/comment-page-2/#comment-308143</link>
		<dc:creator>hbobrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=6934#comment-308143</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;I hate this line of reasoning.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I hate the Second Law of Thermodynamics, myself.

So?

Without the data, the idea that payroll is strongly coupled to performance is equally as much folk wisdom as &quot;clubhouse chemistry.&quot;

I freely concede I haven&#039;t got the data myself.  But googling on the string, &quot;baseball payroll efficiency&quot; brings up a number of hits, some by economists, no less.  Here&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://ideas.repec.org/a/jsf/intjsf/v2y2007i4p177-189.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the abstract to one paper&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;In our 2006 paper, we examined the implications of Michael Lewis’ book for the labor market in Major League Baseball. Our tests provided econometric support for Lewis’ claim of mis-pricing in the baseball labor market’s valuation of batting skills. We also found suggestive evidence that the dispersion of statistical knowledge throughout baseball organizations was associated with a sharp attenuation of the mis-pricing. This paper takes a closer look at the economic issues raised by Lewis for the baseball labor market. We extend the sample both backward and forward in time, seeking to determine how long the pricing anomaly existed, and whether the recent attenuation in the anomaly is robust to new observations. In addition, we refine the measures of skill used in our tests to more closely match the narrative account in Lewis’ book. Using both our earlier and refined measures, we find that the pricing anomaly extends well before the period described in Moneyball, and that with some important caveats, the market correction in the post-Moneyball period persists. Finally, improvements in personnel management associated with a closer link between pay and performance may be responsible for the sharply increased correlation between winning percentage and payroll in recent years.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

On the other hand, the paper came out in 2007 -- before the 2008 Phillies/Rays Series -- so the improved correlation &quot;in recent years&quot; may again be nothing but statistical noise (aka, &quot;luck&quot;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8220;I hate this line of reasoning.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>I hate the Second Law of Thermodynamics, myself.</p>
<p>So?</p>
<p>Without the data, the idea that payroll is strongly coupled to performance is equally as much folk wisdom as &#8220;clubhouse chemistry.&#8221;</p>
<p>I freely concede I haven&#8217;t got the data myself.  But googling on the string, &#8220;baseball payroll efficiency&#8221; brings up a number of hits, some by economists, no less.  Here&#8217;s <a href="http://ideas.repec.org/a/jsf/intjsf/v2y2007i4p177-189.html" rel="nofollow">the abstract to one paper</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;In our 2006 paper, we examined the implications of Michael Lewis’ book for the labor market in Major League Baseball. Our tests provided econometric support for Lewis’ claim of mis-pricing in the baseball labor market’s valuation of batting skills. We also found suggestive evidence that the dispersion of statistical knowledge throughout baseball organizations was associated with a sharp attenuation of the mis-pricing. This paper takes a closer look at the economic issues raised by Lewis for the baseball labor market. We extend the sample both backward and forward in time, seeking to determine how long the pricing anomaly existed, and whether the recent attenuation in the anomaly is robust to new observations. In addition, we refine the measures of skill used in our tests to more closely match the narrative account in Lewis’ book. Using both our earlier and refined measures, we find that the pricing anomaly extends well before the period described in Moneyball, and that with some important caveats, the market correction in the post-Moneyball period persists. Finally, improvements in personnel management associated with a closer link between pay and performance may be responsible for the sharply increased correlation between winning percentage and payroll in recent years.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>On the other hand, the paper came out in 2007 &#8212; before the 2008 Phillies/Rays Series &#8212; so the improved correlation &#8220;in recent years&#8221; may again be nothing but statistical noise (aka, &#8220;luck&#8221;).</p>
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		<title>By: 300ZXNA</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/23/espn-reports-teixeira-to-yanks/comment-page-2/#comment-308142</link>
		<dc:creator>300ZXNA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 07:24:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=6934#comment-308142</guid>
		<description>well, since lots of people don&#039;t like the idea of manipulating what is a semi free-market with regard to payrolls, why not implement a system that is ties into it?  I propose a system where deviation from the mean can be penalized in a pregressive manner.  For example, if we find the average payroll for a given year, call it $100 million (just pulling numbers out of my ass to simplify the math in the argument), any team that is 20-30% above that would have to pay a penalty equivalent to 20% of their payroll.  Any team that is 30-40% above that would be penalized 40%, 40-50% it becomes 80%.  Again, these #&#039;s are just onces I pulled out of the air for the sake of framing the concept.

In theory this would allow teams to splurge above and beyond their regular payroll for a few years if they felt they were close to a championship and needed that last piece, yet if anyone really tries to buy out the league i.e. this offseasons&#039; yanks, they would be whapped pretty hard with things that would eat up that competitive advantage they have monetarily. 

Of course the MLBPA would scream bloody murder, but one thing I like about this idea is that it would only penalize the team(s) getting WAY out of proportion to the rest of baseball.  If many teams upped their payroll at the same time, the payroll average would also go up and thus it would mitigate the penalty some, so the MLBPA wouldn&#039;t have as much to bitch about.

Anyway, I&#039;m sure this idea has been thought of before and there is some aspect to it I&#039;m not seeing that makes it infeasible, but I think its a pretty interesting idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well, since lots of people don&#8217;t like the idea of manipulating what is a semi free-market with regard to payrolls, why not implement a system that is ties into it?  I propose a system where deviation from the mean can be penalized in a pregressive manner.  For example, if we find the average payroll for a given year, call it $100 million (just pulling numbers out of my ass to simplify the math in the argument), any team that is 20-30% above that would have to pay a penalty equivalent to 20% of their payroll.  Any team that is 30-40% above that would be penalized 40%, 40-50% it becomes 80%.  Again, these #&#8217;s are just onces I pulled out of the air for the sake of framing the concept.</p>
<p>In theory this would allow teams to splurge above and beyond their regular payroll for a few years if they felt they were close to a championship and needed that last piece, yet if anyone really tries to buy out the league i.e. this offseasons&#8217; yanks, they would be whapped pretty hard with things that would eat up that competitive advantage they have monetarily. </p>
<p>Of course the MLBPA would scream bloody murder, but one thing I like about this idea is that it would only penalize the team(s) getting WAY out of proportion to the rest of baseball.  If many teams upped their payroll at the same time, the payroll average would also go up and thus it would mitigate the penalty some, so the MLBPA wouldn&#8217;t have as much to bitch about.</p>
<p>Anyway, I&#8217;m sure this idea has been thought of before and there is some aspect to it I&#8217;m not seeing that makes it infeasible, but I think its a pretty interesting idea.</p>
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