Comments on: The Best Example Of Bad Process Ever http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/26/the-best-example-of-bad-process-ever/ Seattle Mariners and general baseball discussion with David Cameron and Derek Zumsteg Sat, 21 Nov 2009 08:17:03 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: jjracoon http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/26/the-best-example-of-bad-process-ever/comment-page-1/#comment-308373 jjracoon Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:28:28 +0000 http://ussmariner.com/?p=6956#comment-308373 Great defense - Good attitude - excellent speed good power - good OBP (.350 range) yet strikeouts and BA were his doom. The Mariners did such a good job of getting him, I still cant believe they let him go so easy. Oh wait a second BB liked to get rid of the ones we wanted to keep and keep the ones that EVERYONE but him knew we should get rid of (or not get in the first place). Great defense – Good attitude – excellent speed
good power – good OBP (.350 range) yet strikeouts
and BA were his doom. The Mariners did such a good job of getting him, I still cant believe they let him go so easy. Oh wait a second BB liked to get rid of the ones we wanted to keep and keep the ones that EVERYONE but him knew we should get rid of (or not get in the first place).

]]> By: joser http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/26/the-best-example-of-bad-process-ever/comment-page-1/#comment-308346 joser Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:21:45 +0000 http://ussmariner.com/?p=6956#comment-308346 It was the latter. The M's sent Choo and a PTBNL (who turned out to be Shawn Nottingham -- shrug) to the Indians for Ben Broussard and cash. After mostly not playing Broussard for two years, Bavasi sent him home to Texas in exchange for Tug Hulet. So essentially the M's swapped a 2.5 Win guy who cost nothing for Bloomquist Lite. (Though having Choo in the outfield meant the Indians had an excess of outfielders, making the deal for Franklin Gutierrez possible.... yeah, I'm not buying that spin either) It was the latter. The M’s sent Choo and a PTBNL (who turned out to be Shawn Nottingham — shrug) to the Indians for Ben Broussard and cash. After mostly not playing Broussard for two years, Bavasi sent him home to Texas in exchange for Tug Hulet.

So essentially the M’s swapped a 2.5 Win guy who cost nothing for Bloomquist Lite. (Though having Choo in the outfield meant the Indians had an excess of outfielders, making the deal for Franklin Gutierrez possible…. yeah, I’m not buying that spin either)

]]> By: JMHawkins http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/26/the-best-example-of-bad-process-ever/comment-page-1/#comment-308344 JMHawkins Sun, 28 Dec 2008 06:31:03 +0000 http://ussmariner.com/?p=6956#comment-308344 <blockquote>Lord, didn’t we trade Choo for Cabrera?</blockquote> No, we traded Choo for 1/2 of a DH platoon to take over for Carl Everett when he didn't light a fire under everyone in the clubhouse with his left-handed sock. I can't remember if we traded Choo for the half that retired at the end of the season after 87 ABs in an M's uniform, or if we traded him for the guy we refused to let have a regular job for two years. Whichever it was, we trade Asdrubal Cabrerra for the other half. And replaced both halves with Jose Vidro.

Lord, didn’t we trade Choo for Cabrera?

No, we traded Choo for 1/2 of a DH platoon to take over for Carl Everett when he didn’t light a fire under everyone in the clubhouse with his left-handed sock.

I can’t remember if we traded Choo for the half that retired at the end of the season after 87 ABs in an M’s uniform, or if we traded him for the guy we refused to let have a regular job for two years.

Whichever it was, we trade Asdrubal Cabrerra for the other half.

And replaced both halves with Jose Vidro.

]]> By: justinh http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/26/the-best-example-of-bad-process-ever/comment-page-1/#comment-308341 justinh Sun, 28 Dec 2008 01:27:28 +0000 http://ussmariner.com/?p=6956#comment-308341 How about getting rid of Chin Soo Choo? Look what he has done. I was looking at the fangraphs projections for Franklin Gutierrez and then looked at Choo. In 300 ABs last year he had 17 HR and a .940 OPS. Lord, didn't we trade Choo for Cabrera? Choo wasn't the greatest prospect, but it shows how BB could not judge talent. How about getting rid of Chin Soo Choo? Look what he has done. I was looking at the fangraphs projections for Franklin Gutierrez and then looked at Choo. In 300 ABs last year he had 17 HR and a .940 OPS. Lord, didn’t we trade Choo for Cabrera? Choo wasn’t the greatest prospect, but it shows how BB could not judge talent.

]]> By: coasty141 http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/26/the-best-example-of-bad-process-ever/comment-page-1/#comment-308340 coasty141 Sat, 27 Dec 2008 23:18:22 +0000 http://ussmariner.com/?p=6956#comment-308340 Another brillant move that offseason was getting rid of Carlos Guillen. Good thing we got him and his lazy ass out of the clubhouse. In 03 he got 2.5 mil but played like a 5.9mil player for us. In 04 Carlos got the same 2.5mil but played like a 15.4mil player for the Tigers. Another brillant move that offseason was getting rid of Carlos Guillen. Good thing we got him and his lazy ass out of the clubhouse. In 03 he got 2.5 mil but played like a 5.9mil player for us. In 04 Carlos got the same 2.5mil but played like a 15.4mil player for the Tigers.

]]> By: Mike S http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/26/the-best-example-of-bad-process-ever/comment-page-1/#comment-308329 Mike S Sat, 27 Dec 2008 20:20:16 +0000 http://ussmariner.com/?p=6956#comment-308329 My 85 year old grandfather, baseball player and fan his whole life, always said that Mike Cameron was the best center fielder (defensive) he had ever seen. He wasn't a stat guy at all but he was pissed when Cameron was let go, arguing that his defense more than made up for his bat issues. My 85 year old grandfather, baseball player and fan his whole life, always said that Mike Cameron was the best center fielder (defensive) he had ever seen. He wasn’t a stat guy at all but he was pissed when Cameron was let go, arguing that his defense more than made up for his bat issues.

]]> By: dcs http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/26/the-best-example-of-bad-process-ever/comment-page-1/#comment-308322 dcs Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:52:03 +0000 http://ussmariner.com/?p=6956#comment-308322 You'd think that with as much crap as Gillick received for gutting the farm system, that at least he'd get credit for understanding the value of defense. You’d think that with as much crap as Gillick received for gutting the farm system, that at least he’d get credit for understanding the value of defense.

]]> By: naviomelo http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/26/the-best-example-of-bad-process-ever/comment-page-1/#comment-308321 naviomelo Sat, 27 Dec 2008 09:40:25 +0000 http://ussmariner.com/?p=6956#comment-308321 The fact of the matter is that the most effective way to build a ballclub is by maximizing defensive aptitude. That's the most undervalued skill of all baseball skills, and as long as it is, that's the way that enterprising GMs with budget constraints ought to go about building teams. The fact of the matter is that the most effective way to build a ballclub is by maximizing defensive aptitude. That’s the most undervalued skill of all baseball skills, and as long as it is, that’s the way that enterprising GMs with budget constraints ought to go about building teams.

]]> By: diderot http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/26/the-best-example-of-bad-process-ever/comment-page-1/#comment-308320 diderot Sat, 27 Dec 2008 08:28:47 +0000 http://ussmariner.com/?p=6956#comment-308320 emerald, thanks for the link. I had read it a couple weeks ago but it's one of those things that's good to revisit. In those terms, my point is that while I believe using the WAR numbers is an excellent way to measure process (and build a team), the addition of a monetary value to those wins may lead further away from good process than toward it. Or, to put it a another way, bad process leading to a good outcome isn't just dumb luck if some teams have enough money to buy their way past their bad process. And that's not just the Steinbrenners, it's John Henry and Arte Moreno, too. emerald,
thanks for the link. I had read it a couple weeks ago but it’s one of those things that’s good to revisit.
In those terms, my point is that while I believe using the WAR numbers is an excellent way to measure process (and build a team), the addition of a monetary value to those wins may lead further away from good process than toward it.
Or, to put it a another way, bad process leading to a good outcome isn’t just dumb luck if some teams have enough money to buy their way past their bad process. And that’s not just the Steinbrenners, it’s John Henry and Arte Moreno, too.

]]> By: DMZ http://ussmariner.com/2008/12/26/the-best-example-of-bad-process-ever/comment-page-1/#comment-308319 DMZ Sat, 27 Dec 2008 06:58:02 +0000 http://ussmariner.com/?p=6956#comment-308319 Wasn't seen... by who? By the team? I remember carping about this at some length, saying that Bavasi set out to trade off defense to get some offense but was going to end up short. Wasn’t seen… by who? By the team? I remember carping about this at some length, saying that Bavasi set out to trade off defense to get some offense but was going to end up short.

]]>