New USSM rule: no one is the judge of fandom
No one.
I don’t get to say that people who could watch tonight’s replay of Ichiro setting the single-season hits record and not feel choked up aren’t fans.
And they don’t get to say that I’m not a Mariner fan because I’m not as enthusiastic as they are about bringing Griffey back, or whatever they might see as my most egregious shortcoming.
I’ve seen this come up repeatedly in recent comment threads (you’re not a fan if you don’t think steroids are the worst thing ever, you’re not a fan if you aren’t interested in the team’s long term fortunes, and on and on and on). I’m tired of it. Mariner fandom comes in many forms, and I try to hold some appreciation for all its varieties.
I will no longer have any patience for being a jerk about your personal view of what “fan” means being the only valid interpretation. And if I do it, please, yell at me.
That’s all. Please return to your regular business.
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Does this mean I gotta change my name now?
I’m a fan of that rule. And to be slightly more philosophical about it, one of the great things about baseball fandom is how much room it allows for evolution inside each of us. Compare what it meant for you to be a fan at 5, or at 15, and then when you first started to care about the rules of the game, and then when you were on your first fantasy baseball team or first played strat (or whatever), and when you started to take a more nuanced view of statistics, or realllly paid attention to defense, or experienced the 1995 run… etc. Anyway, good rule.
God, yes, I too am so tired of this crap. It’s stupid and has absolutely no argumentative value. If you hold a position because you think it makes you a ‘better fan’, you need to rethink your position.
Thumbs up.
Makes me feel a little bit better knowing almost all “stat” guys are being hated on for not thinking Griffey would make less sense than a good trade or than an Abreu signing. Every casual fan explodes when I tell them I am pretty much against a Griffey signing.
But what if I think that Ichiro sucks?
This rule is new?
Amen Derek. I get an invite to join a Facebook M’s page with a ton of people on it. I go there to see the news item on which one of the admins thinks our recent trades were bad.
I decided to not join because I don’t want to get mad at them and I am sure they won’t be mad at me for disagreeing! I just wish people would see the value of defense the way they do hitting. I am of the belief the team may quietly sneak up on many.
Oh and just say no to Griffey! We have what we need for now. If we can’t afford Abreu for 8 mil, why should we spend close to that amount for Jr?
Oh, and I am not a better fan for believing what I just wrote here and nobody is a worse fan for disagreeing with me!
Amen to that, brotha! Wish more places online might make this rule. It seems to be the dividing point of civility in a lot of online baseball forums..
Does this mean I gotta change my name now?
It looks to that you only have to change the “fan” part.
But what if I think that Ichiro sucks?
I’m not sure that is what Derek is thinking. But then again, Ive been known to be mistaken…
I do agree with what I think he is saying. My perception is that it should be assumed that everyone here is a fan. So why would any of us have any need to prove how long/big of a fan we are? (Please correct me if I am mistaken Derek)
Glad to hear that this (sometimes hard to remember) ideal being given some ’spect. I am a long time lurker and reader, and am happy to hear that my personal fan-p-o-v is just as valid as the fan sitting cyber-next to me. Kudos. (Made me so happy I just had to make my first post!).
Its back to lurking now for me, but seriously keep up the great work guys. I do love reading this site.
Gritty- I am a member of that group, and when some news comes up there is actually decent discussion with about…4 of the members. The rest are your typical uninformed fans (god that makes me sound so elitist, I’m really not.) Good for a laugh/aneurysm every once in a while.
Amen Derek.
so, like baseball itself, where Dustin Pedroia can stand next to CC Sabathia, there is room for all types of fandom?
msb, if I were Pedroia, I’d be scared that Sabathia would eat me.
I remember when David Eckstein played shortstop for the Angels and Troy Glaus was at third base. They’d go chat with each other during pitching changes. Holy smokes. It was like watching a parent talk to his twelve year old kid.
If you don’t judge others’ fandom you’re not a real fan.
Just kidding. Amen. I was just criticized last night for not being a real fan because I play fantasy sports. Who knew?
Hey how about your not a fan if you don’t think vidro deserved a spot in the line up……I don’t think anyone said this, but hopefully it gives you a good laugh
Just a really quick clarification of the new rule…
What if a poster really, really, really wants to question another person’s fandom? Would an exception be made in that circumstance?
While I get your point – Fandom comes in many flavors, and fandom diversity is great – there are a couple of things I think this site is built on:
1. The average fan IQ is not high enough;
2. More education on how baseball works is a good thing, and most of us would much rather have conversations with other fans who seek better knowelege of the game to form their opinions;
3. Not every opinion is created equal, and even if it doesn’t make you a better fan to know more, USSM University certainly doesn’t think every fan’s opinions count equally. Nor should they.
If we are honest about it, USSM strives to create a better, more educated fan. It doesn’t say you are stupid for wanting a different brand of fandom – one that loves every Mariner player who puts on the uniform because they are their guy now (and I think we all have some hope, even if subconscious, that every player turns into a superstar when they get here, even if that is unrealistic), and to do otherwise is treason or something. I like those kind of folks too. Most of my family fit in that category. But, just like anything else, isn’t there really a sense here that an educated fan is a better fan on some level? It certainly trends that way. I’m good with that, honestly, so long as we treat people like human beings in the process. What am I missing?
Those are valid points, and I think it’s important not to conflate what Derek is saying in this post with the standards for discussion here.
We expect people who post here to do so with an open mind and be somewhat interested in educating themselves and posting from a well thought out point of view.
However, we don’t expect that from the whole of Mariner fandom, and if someone wants to think that Carl Everett was the best Mariner ever (specifically picking a stance that I would hope no one would ever actually take, to avoid offending anyone), that doesn’t make them any less of a fan than those of us who disagree; it might make us a little less inclined to take their opinions seriously, but they’re still a good fan of the team after their own fashion.
To sum up:
I don’t think it’s a question of “better” in the overall scheme of things; they’re certainly a better fit into the flow of discussion on this site, and I certainly would hope that people would aspire to become more educated fans of whatever team they follow; but not everyone WANTS that.
Some people are content to not heavily analyze the game, and just enjoy a nice summer day at the ballpark and cheer for their favorite player. The team needs those kinds of fans, too.
I could be wrong, but I suspect that a comment I made yesterday on the Alex thread may have been, in some part, responsible for this post by Derek.
So, first, I agree–no matter how much you love baseball, how many games you’ve attended, how conversant you are with sabre-metrics–or how lacking you are in any of these or other measurements–you are an equal fan. May the number of fans always grow.
There were a lot of comments anti-ARod, some positive, and many opinions as to who was at fault. I say yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion.
But the ones that I simply can not understand were those who said, in effect, that it really didn’t make any difference. I fail to see how that’s defensible.
The issue to me is making sure the playing field is level. If suddenly the economy tanked enough so that from that point forward, the salaries of all umpires would be paid for by the Steinbrenner family, I think people would fear for the game. I think if Bud Selig announced one day that in the future, all pitches thrown by opposing teams in Fenway must alternate between left and right arms…I think there would be a question of fairness and equal competitiveness. For that matter, if I find a way to have Stephen Hawking take the math SAT for my kid, is that fair to your kid?
So, you don’t think it matters, great, you’re still a fan. But why do you think PEDs don’t matter? Why is it OK to allow a situation where non-users are tempted to ingest things unhealthy in order to maintain competitiveness?
So, if nothing else, this has convinced me to read Derek’s book. Maybe there is an argument there that says not only has cheating always existed…but that it also doesn’t make any difference.
Here’s why I love baseball – I flip on the TV last night and find the replay of the game where Ichiro broke the ML hit record. The game happened several years ago, and at the time the Mariners weren’t even in contention. But the place was packed and the Sisler family was there to witness the event (although the grandsons all seemed to be on their cell phones the entire game – probably still trying to find a suitor for their Sisler 2004 video game).
So it’s the bottom of the first and my 7-year old son walks in and asks what I’m watching. That 1 innocent question turns into a history of baseball that my son, who was only 3 at the time of the actual game, actually is interested in hearing.
Steroids and unrealistic contracts aside, baseball still transcends time. It takes me back to my childhood when my Dad told me of the players that made their way through Yakima on the way to a ML career. It’s nice to just be able to sit back and watch the game for what it is.
I don’t care. I don’t care. I don’t know how much more clear I can be about this: I don’t care how valid you think your position is, or how stupid the other side is — if anyone says “you’re not a fan” to someone they disagree with, I’m tossing them.
The steroids issue is not the issue here. It’s everyone running around and drawing little circles around themselves and declaring the outsiders apostates.
Hey, I’m a fan.
I’m a 16-inch oscillating fan with three speeds, and I come with a 1-year warranty!
=oP
*sic*
Judging fan status is a joke. Well-written post, DMZ.
I believe that a combination of the Mariners getting better and people looking for free entertainment will lead to more and more new users heading over here. Meaning the need for constant reminders about this sort of thing.
I mod for a football MMORPG forum with something like 300,000 users. It gets frustrating – fast. Especially when you don’t get paid.
So, people just showing some common sense and courtsey to their fellow fan will go a long way to save the sanity of the authors and make for a better experience for all.
courtsey to their fellow fan
Is there an emoticon for that?
Indeed, Carson. I’ve moderated several online message boards before, and it can get extrememly frustrating to watch “grown folks” act like bratty little children, throwing handfuls of mud at one another in their written volleys.
It’s sad when you have to “count to three” for adults to straighten up, but, currently, that’s the nature of the MB beast. It’s that free-floating hostility that gets to even the most easy-going of folks (myself included, from time to time) that ends up being the unjustifiable means to an end.
Thus, in closing, can’t we all just get along?
=oD
The entire angle of “I’m a fan and you’re not” reminds me of a few years ago, when suggestions about the country and personal patriotism were bandied about in a similar way. It’s crap.
Thanks, Derek. +1.
If this wasn’t a serious post, the best title ever would be “Real fans don’t question the fanhood of others.”
lol, good call. Feel free to edit and delete all evidence of that.
rmac1973 – The real issue is the anonymity people have and gimmicks they create when you give them a computer with interwebz access.
This blog has done a tremendous job with moderation and zapping most of the crap before anyone sees it, though.
Does this rule include forbidding the labelling of entire groups in stereotypical terms such as:
“Uninformed Fans”
“Casual Fans”
…simply because they may not agree with one particular point made? While not as forceful as ‘You’re not as good a fan as me’, it still has the insinuation of: ‘If you don’t agree with me, then you aren’t on the same level as me.’ While some folks indeed are more casual than others, or who don’t value certain measurements as much as others do…it doesn’t make them any less of anything. In the end, I guess I would just like to see a ‘judging a viewpoint’s merit’, instead of a ‘judging the person/group’s merit BECAUSE of their viewpoint’.
splitter.
It is OK, I assume, to refer to “casual fans” if you are indeed referencing their casual attire. We should classify all fans by how they dress. Ichiro and his fashion sense would appreciate that.
Yes, I look forward to the fan in tails.
‘If you don’t agree with me, then you aren’t on the same level as me.’
What exactly is the problem with that?
Derek, I’ve been reading this blog for a long time, and I love what you do. I’ve never taken the time to register before now because I’ve never felt the need to comment on anything. But I feel that that post is deserving of a standing ovation. I am a member of a number of blogs which support Seattle area sports, and truthfully I am quite critical of them when they make questionable decisions, are not winning, or are not playing to their potential. And when I voice my opinions, time after time I’m met with people saying that I’m “not a true fan”. It is ludicrous.
The moderators make the rules and we must follow them or risk their ire, but I don’t agree with this one. Removing non-thread comments is one thing, but having the moderator set rules based on his or her pet peeves is antithetical to the tradition of public forums. Yes, blogs are outside the protection of the first amendment as it is not the government limiting free speech. They do, however, play a vital role in modern public discourse; a role that is undermined by censorship. The best way to deal with posts that attack on a personal level is to ignore them; to take a deep breath and remind your self that one of the costs of living in a democratic society that values free speech is tolerating speech that may fall below the standards of civility we aspire to.
msb: Gourd, or shoe?
This isn’t a public forum, it’s a blog.
This isn’t a public forum.
Seriously, if there was one thing I wish everyone reading this would grasp, it would be that – you don’t have a right to post here.
It’s not censorship to create an atmosphere where people who want to pick fights aren’t welcome. Really, seriously, if you want to pick a fight or start arguments, we have no interest in having you here.
[dupe]
This site has lots of guidelines other than this one, and we set a pretty high bar for the expected level of discourse.
It’s not done in the name of censorship, it’s done in the name of both being able to keep comments topical, and force people to think before they post.
To give an example, we don’t allow any discussion of or speculation about steroid use except in certain very carefully chosen comment threads; this isn’t because we want to censor anyone, it’s because we’ve seen what has happened with those comment threads in the past and it’s impossible to continue reasoned discussion once that subject comes up.
This site isn’t meant to be the P-I forums or any other more broadly-focused sports discussion site you might name, and Derek’s post doesn’t change that; all that he’s saying is that you need to be respectful of the fact that not everyone is a fan in the same way.
(and I’ll admit to having slipped up on this myself in the past, so this post was a good reminder for me too)
I’m stricter than you. I don’t think you’re a real fan if I don’t like your shoes.
a true baseball fan.
oh, and Popular People’s Front.
You’re not a true fan of USSM unless you’ve bought Derek a beer before one of those pre-game events. BTW, he prefers Fat Tire, or did a couple of years ago.
I have full understanding that this is not a public forum in the traditional sense (or the legal sense), and I have read, understand, and strive to comply with the posting rules. I participate because, in general, I agree with those rules and enjoy the thoughtful and insightful level of discourse that occurs on this blog and appreciate the tremendous effort that goes into ensuring that posts are topical and value-adding. I just happen to disagree that a hard-rule banning attacks on “fandom”–which, after all, are nothing more than hypberbole–is the most effective way to further that goal. I enjoy seeing such attacks effectively countered by the well-reasoned arguments of USS Mariner participants, including the moderators.
If it isnt a rule….
I suggest a rule about attacking the rules…..
Email the moderators directly and tell them….
Reading page after page of people talking about how they want to attack people is getting pretty old.
I enjoy seeing such attacks effectively countered by the well-reasoned arguments of USS Mariner participants, including the moderators.
But isn’t it better when the thread isn’t splintered with such pettiness?
This is a blog entry about the rule, hence it would seem like the appropriate venue to discuss it. And since there is little else in the M’s universe to distract oneself with on a miserable February day . . .
This is a blog entry about the rule, hence it would seem like the appropriate venue to discuss it.
Isn’t that what we are doing? Discussing the rule and the reasoning for it, I mean.
Apologies, that entry was in relation to E_Martinez’s post.
Since this is the new rule I have something to say that I’ve been holding back because of the certain “idiot” criticisms I would’ve gotten.
[deleted, off-topic]
My fandom is bigger than your fandom!
Sorry, couldn’t resist. I applaud the decision. Discussions that devolve into comparing the sizes of ones interest in the local team provide no value.
I think before it was more of a guideline than a rule.
Sweet, I was getting a little tired of the, “If you were a Mariner fan then (fill in the blanks)”.
When does the damn season start? Not soon enough!
Now you’re going all Bill Maher on us.
Man, things have been tense around here lately–whether it’s cabin fever or the full moon, who knows.
Pitchers and catchers soon, people. We’re almost there.
Kirby Arnold is already down in Peoria
Fans are stupid by nature. Mariner fans are the worst. Who cares what they say. USSM on the other hand is smart. Rock on Derek and Dave!
I’m all for free speech, but a lot of people seem to think that gives them the right to say whatever they want, wherever they want, however they want.
I look at someone’s personal blog (forum or internet site) the same way I look at their house. Their place, they make the rules. If I want to stay, I obey them. The rules in DMZ/Dave’s house are sound, and promote good discussions without the topics degenerating into childish bickering and name calling. That’s one of the reasons I like it here, and wipe my feet before coming in.
Pitchers and catchers soon, people. We’re almost there.
Yes, Yes. And I’m getting all goosey in anticipation!