The Depth Chart, pre-spring training
Unless there’s another signing, here’s what the M’s will be sorting through
Rotation
SP-R Felix Hernandez
SP-L Erik Bedard
SP-R Brandon Morrow
SP-L Jarrod “The Bus” Washburn
SP-R Carlos Silva
Alt SP:
SP-L Ryan Rowland-Smith
SP-L Ryan Feierabend
SP-L Garret Olson
Bullpen
RP-R Miguel “Doc” Batista
RP-R Roy Corcoran
RP-R Tyler Walker
RP-R David Aardsma
RP-R Mark Lowe
RP-R Randy Messenger
RP-R Shawn Kelley
RP-L Cesar Jimenez
RP-L Justin Thomas
RP-L Jason Vargas
RP-L Garrett Olson
RP-L Jose Lugo
RP-L Tyler Johnson
RP-L Chris Seddon
RP-wow I am tired of typing reliever names
Position Players
DH-R Wladimir Balentien
C-L Jeff Clement
C-R Kenji Johjima
1B-L Russ Branyan
2B-R Jose Lopez
3B-R Adrian Beltre
SS-R Yuniesky Betancourt
RF-L Ichiro!
CF-R Franklin Gutierrez
LF-L Endy Chavez
Also:
C-R Jamie Burke
C-R Rob Johnson
1B-R Chris Shelton
1B-R Mike Morse
1B-L Bryan LaHair
1B-L Mike Carp
2B-B Reegie Corona
2B-L Tug Hulett
SS-R Ronny Cedeno
3B-R Matt Tuiasosopo
OF-L Michael Saunders
OF-R Michael Wilson
OF-R Greg Halman
DH-R Mike Sweeney
That’s a lot of sorting.
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41 Responses to “The Depth Chart, pre-spring training”
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Ughh. Seeing those options for a lineup on paper makes me wonder even more where the runs are going to come from. Defense and pitching are great and all, but I’d still like to see some runs put up. Their defense can’t make up that many runs to overcome this.
I have a feeling we’re gonna struggle to score runs at times, but I suppose that’s not really anything new. The improved outfield defense will be fun to watch, and hopefully it ends up making Bus look just good enough that we can dump him on some delusional semi-contender for another young arm or bat.
Also, I think Felix could singlehandedly make this season a fun one for me. If he comes out and K’s 200 and wins 15 games, I will be happy almost no matter what else happens.
Help me out here a bit with your logic. Are you saying that the team would be better off if it sacrificed, say, 10 additional runs on defense if a guy were brought in who contributed 8 runs on offense instead? I’m more than a bit confused as to how such a tradeoff would make this a better team.
I wouldn’t read so much into it Steve. It’s as simple as this: the offense doesn’t look good.
The team has an average or above average pitching staff and above average defense, yet it’s still not a .500 team (at least on paper). The team could still be improved overall with improved pitching, improved middle infield defense, or improved offense, but in general, the offense does not look good right now.
I don’t think its any big secret that this team is going to have trouble scoring runs. PECOTA is projecting 725 and Marcels have us at 697. Thats just not a big margin of error for the run prevention side of things.
Dude, I know the z and the x are REALLY close on the keyboard, but how could this happen?
Typing “King Felix” or just “Felix” has not allowed you to grow muscle memory for “Hernandez” yet, possibly?
[Jack Zduriencik, not Jim Z]
What quality bat, and at what position? It’s not as simple as just getting another quality hitter. You have to give up young talent to acquire something of merit like that, or pay out the nose (more money, and probably more years than would be wise). The payroll is coming down, not going up…maybe you missed that bit of news, but buying a FA bat is essentially out of the question. Plus, the optimism around here isn’t tied to some delusion that we’re going to compete for the division this year. Most of us want to see the small, patient moves that build a winner from the bottom up over a few years. That’s where my optimism comes from, and it has nothing to do with any expectation of the team being highly competitive this year, or maybe even 2010 or 2011, either.
I guess you would like to see us sign Manny? It would be a novelty this year, but not in the fourth and final year of a $20 mil+/per year contract to watch him play an abysmal LF. We still wouldn’t make the playoffs anyway.
GTownHoyas – The M’s don’t have the payroll flexibility to sign a big bat right now. There just simply isn’t a ‘big bat’ on the market for under, say, $3 million.
This is one of the more exciting spring trainings that I can remember, simply because there are so few guaranteed job. No matter what happens, odds are there will be several members of the team that I haven’t seen play before, and that’s an exciting proposition compared to “Vidro is our DH, end of story” (not an actual quote).
I’m really surprised WLAD is still on the team…I hope he, along with Morse and Wash tear it up during spring, so we can trade the three for anything…
This off-season is by far the craziest I can remember…you have all the Yankee moves, A-Roid, our #1 draft pick from last year not signed, and a TON of good players still not signed and camp starts in a few days…plus, for once, we have more questions than answers on our projected roster…
All the while, we have a competant GM making little moves to win more games now, and set us up to win a whole lot more in the future…I can’t friggin’ wait for opening day…
I’m guessing these are the players we’re going to have until trade-time.
I think the defense will help the pitching to the point that we’ll be able to trade, say, Washburn and RRS for a legitimate bat in july. one who’ll be willing to sign.
we’ll see.
To a certain extent, GTownHoyas is right: It is very difficult to create a winning MLB team without a couple of outright stars on the roster. However, that “star” doesn’t need to come in the way of a “big bat.” It can be a player with an awesome glove and above-average offense, like Mike Cameron. (Cameron was a +5 win player in ’02 and ’03, according to Fangraphs. His ’01 was probably better, since his defense was just as good and he was +10 wRAA over ’02/’03.)
Yeah, the M’s don’t really have legitimate star power right now. Beltre and Ichiro average around +4 WAR talent. With a lineup full of guys like that, you can be a winner. (Yeah, I just said that Mike Cameron was more valuable in ’01-03 than Ichiro or Beltre have been in ’05-07, but the numbers bear that out.)
But a franchise player makes up for a lot of that. Felix could be that guy, if he takes a step forward. There are a couple of guys with legitimate star potential in the minor league system, if they make it through the crush.
It seems to me that Z’s first goal is leaving himself flexibility for future years, while acquiring cheap talent now. That’s a good plan. I don’t expect the M’s to be winners this year. Solid improvement will be appreciated. More important is the ability to take advantage of opportunity later, when there’s a better talent base on this team.
SP-R Felix Hernandex
Dude, I know the z and the x are REALLY close on the keyboard, but how could this happen?
Fixed. Those unusual letters at the end of the alphabet just look the same sometimes, I guess, and you gloss over any spell-check issues with names.
If we’re keeping Washburn’s nickname then what about
ChiefChef Silva?lailaihei- I guess my words were a little misguiding maybe. I’m not saying we have to spend a ton of money on getting someone who is a “star” player, but someone simlilar to Mike Sweeney, only that doesn’t get hurt every other game. I think it would be great to get Adam Dunn if he didn’t come at a huge price.
[meta]
True, but the 2008 Blue Jays showed us how good a team built on nothing but pitching and defence can be.
Repeat after me:
The only thing that matters in winning baseball games is scoring more runs than the other team.
I’m disappointed only “the Bus” had his nickname attached. I guess we have to see what any supposed offseason conditioning wrought, but until I’m persuaded otherwise I see “the Buffet” bringing up the rear of the rotation. (Heck, I even enjoy “the Interview” as a nickname despite my certainty he’s been given a raw deal by the msmedia and a lot of fans).
plus, for once, we have more questions than answers on our projected roster…
And the answers we have are mostly reasonable ones (not counting the wrong answers left over from past offseasons). Meanwhile the questions are pretty interesting. Who’s the closer? Will there be other bullpen “roles” and if so who will fill them? Does Olson (I believe it’s Garrett BTW, with two “t”s) start the season in Tacoma? Do they use RRS as a “real” 6th starter, or do they leave him in long relief to keep his innings down in case someone gets injured? Does Lopez build on last year or regress again (and does he feel any pressure from Hulet or Corona)? Has Yuni lost any weight and improved (and does Cedeno pressure him)? Who’s the real starting first baseman, or is there platoon? What do they do with Morse?
Man, Wakamatsu and the rest of the staff have their work cut out for them.
And that won’t be happening….
Hoya:
The Mariners will win more games this year than they did last year…that’s what we should be looking forward to…
People also need to remember that there is likely to be one more bat signed. Probably a lefty – likely either Junior or Anderson (though who knows exactly).
In other words, there is one more (slightly above replacement level) batter who will be in the lineup 120 times that will be signed soon…
This won’t effect the defense (assuming the guy is primarily the DH) but will add a little to the offense.
Won’t make a huge difference but will create a few more runs.
I wonder what impact the Abreu signing will have on the market for Adam Dunn. Obviously, it is one more player off the board. But, he also signed for a lower amount than anyone thought he would, probably even a few days ago.
If the Mariners could get Dunn on a (somewhat) similar deal and add him to the stack listed in this post, I would be happy.
They can’t.
True that.
Is that because he simply doesn’t want to play in Seattle or because the market is much hotter for Dunn than it was for Abreu?
We’d probably all like Dunn at an Abreau type deal, but it won’t happen…
1) Z says they have no more money unless they move Wash…
2) Dunn has publicly stated he isn’t thrilled about playing in the Northwest…
3) The Nationals have a better/longer offer on the table to him than what we could probably offer…
If they bring in anyone, it’s probably Griff or Anderson…
Yeah, the offense is a problem. It’s also one that would realistically require signing Adam Dunn at DH to appreciably improve. The bottom line is this team
For those of you thinking Ken Griffey’s the answer, I suggest you go take a look at his wOBA/wRAA projections on Fangraphs, and compare and contrast with Branyan and Shelton’s projections. He’s not all THAT much of an improvement, even giving him a boost for mostly being used against LHP. (Shelton seems to be projected for something like a .340 OBP and .450 SLG- not great, but not very far away from what Griffey is projected for- of course, this doesn’t include Safeco, but Shelton could actually play 1B, whereas Griffey’s completely useless defensively.)
Probably not, but it’s important to understand that run prevention is just as good of a tool to help you win games as run scoring.
“True, but the 2008 Blue Jays showed us how good a team built on nothing but pitching and defence can be.”
Do you really think the M’s have a prayer only allowing 610 runs like the 08 Blue Jays? I’m as excited as anyone that the Mariners are showing that they value defense but comparing the 09 Mariners to the 08 Blue Jays is setting the bar a little high.
Oops, that should read “the bottom line is this team is going to have problems scoring runs unless a couple of kids (Lopez, Clement, Cedeno, Gutierrez) have breakout years and we get lucky- maybe Beltre or Ichiro think it’s 2004 again. But the defense will be improved, and this team isn’t appreciably worse than last year- and has more pleasant upside potential in places.”
Do you really think the M’s have a prayer only allowing 610 runs like the 08 Blue Jays?
I’d compare them more to the Oakland teams of the last few years, where Billy Beane has consciously gone for defense and selectively imported players that are undervalued offensively. The A’s haven’t been able to consistently win, but they have been able to parlay pitching talent in trade because their pitchers look better surrounded by a good defense. It’s something to think about when you have nearly 30 million dollars being paid to guys like Silva, Washburn and Batista.
I kind of think Lopez had his breakout year at the plate last year. Hope I’m wrong, but we may well have seen the top of his abilities with the bat.
I kind of think Lopez had his breakout year at the plate last year. Hope I’m wrong, but we may well have seen the top of his abilities with the bat.
You may be right, but he’s still younger than Jeff Clement AND Ronny Cedeno.
IMO the brilliance is in acquiring defense to improve the over-priced, under-whelming pitching rather than bring over-priced boppers (either in contract or prospects needed to acquire) in an attempt to compensate by trying nightly to outscore our poor stock of pitchers (well, several nights a week anyway). Count me excited to expect to see more 3-2 scores than 8-6 finals. I think that lineup can score 3-4 runs most nights. That just might be enough – to remain competitive.
Heck, even Gammons is noticing the move toward defense and away from Incaviglia.
“I think that lineup can score 3-4 runs most nights. That just might be enough – to remain competitive.”
4 runs a game is 648 runs for a season. If a team scored 648 runs in a season and gave up 610 runs ( which was the best in baseball last year) they would have a pythag of 85 wins. Sure that would be competitive but you really need to have a plan to score more runs than four a game to be successful.
Dunn just signed with Washington…next, Griff will sign by the weekend with The Mariners…
Reegie Corona is our only switch hitter? That can’t be good for the grit factor.
Except that guy could very possibly be Clement, who’s already on the roster for free. Given his history there’s still a very good chance this could be his breakout year, and I’d hate to stunt or dilute that because a one-year stopgap is stealing AB’s. If Joh wasn’t around and Clement was obviously the full-time catcher, this wouldn’t be a concern, but that inexplicable contract haunts the team as much as the no-trade of Wasburn to the Yankees — everybody talks about Washburn’s $10M, but Joh’s $8M would buy a lot of hitting in this market too (as it would in ’10 and ’11).
Stepping back a bit, though: We all need to remember where we were 6 months ago. The team was circling the drain in the standings, fratricidal in the clubhouse, and just mailing it in on the field; management had been reduced to nothing but handcuffed care-takers; the roster was stuffed with horrendous contracts; and the best-case scenario most of us could see involved a multi-year rebuilding project. And that was assuming Howard and Chuck somehow managed to hire a GM who “gets it” even though they still clearly don’t.
And yet here we are.
I’m not saying the FO should just call it a day and stop burning up the phones trying to creatively add another bat. As Zduriencik himself has said, everybody always likes to have a little more offense, and I expect he’ll keep looking (and if anybody can find a creative way to succeed at that, I have a lot of faith in Zduriencik). But given what he was handed, we have to be pretty pleased with where the team is. Yes, there’s only some crazy fluke 1951-Giants/1995-Mariners chance the team will end up contending for the AL West (hey, you never know — Holliday breaks something, Vlad and Santana go on the DL, things happen). But this is looking more and more like a 1-year turnaround to get back into contention, and that’s not bad. And meanwhile, we’ll get to watch some fun defense and and maybe see the M’s surprise a lot of people and win more games than the “conventional wisdom” expects. Plus we have the monster draft and trade-deadline intrigue to look forward to. After the bleak Bavasi years, it’s a good time to be an M’s fan. And we’re in before the bandwagoners!
That’s what I was thinking, too. How can we hope to compete with only one switch-hitter? Gone are the glory days of Turbo, Everett, and Ben Davis! (end sarcasm)
Also, well said joser. This should be an awesome draft, looking at what Z helped to do in Milwaukee.
+1
I have a few questions for everyone here:
1) If the M’s could bring in Griffey for the league minimum or give those at-bats to Clement, Shelton, Morse, Balentin, etc., who would you rather see get those at-bats?
2) Would you rather see the M’s play Washburn, Batista, and Silva and try to trade them or get something out of their contracts or cut them for nothing and play Greg Olson, RRS, Gaby Hernandez, etc.?
3) If the M’s could either compete for a Playoff birth in 2009 OR be able to compete from 2010 to 2012, would you want them to do?
My answers would be:
1) Give the at-bats to Clement, Morse, Wlad, etc. so that they can continue to develop on the field and potentially develop trade value if the team chooses to shop them.
2) Play Washburn, Batista, and Silva until they show that they are below Replacement Level. Have Olson, Gaby, and RRS start the year in Tacoma as starters and bring the best one up if/when Washburn gets traded.
3) As you can tell from my first two answers, I want the team to build towards competing in 2010 and beyond. If they had the payroll for Dunn, Abrea, etc. this year, I would have been all for picking up someone who could help them compete this year without blocking future contention. As Dave pointed out in previous posts, Griffey could outright hurt the team this year.