Ichiro Is the Selfish One?
I know you’ve probably all seen Larry Stone’s piece where he talks to J.J. Putz, and Putz makes no bones about the fact that he doesn’t think Ichiro is a team guy. You’ve heard this criticism of Ichiro before – all about himself, all about the numbers, that kind of stuff.
Well, check out these quotes from Miguel Batista when talking to John Hickey yesterday:
“You don’t pay a guy $9 million to pitch middle relief,” he said Sunday, aware that he’s the second highest-paid pitcher on the team. “Well, maybe the Yankees do. My concern is to stay healthy and help the team and we will find some neutral ground.”
“I know we have kids here who have to pitch,” he said. “But if I don’t pitch here next year, I’m going to pitch somewhere. So I need numbers (either wins or saves). So for me, I’ve either got to close or to start.”
There’s a perception that Ichiro is all about gathering personal accomplishments at the expense of the team. Miguel Batista outright says that he’s putting his own statistics ahead of what’s best for the team. Think we’ll see any “Miguel Batista is a clubhouse cancer” stories?
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Ichiro doesn’t need to dictate where he hits in the order; his skillset does it for him. He’s the best player on the team at getting on base, and he’s the best base-stealer.
And I guess Ichiro agreeing to move to center to help the team was also selfish?
Maybe we should make Ichiro play shortstop and tell him to hit 50 homers this year. If he doesn’t do it, just get rid of him, because he obviously doesn’t care about winning.
Is the tail wagging the dog? So I click on the Beltre comments and now I’m curling my lip at him too. Good job, journalists. Maybe we shouldn’t know how these guys think; I’m losing respect by the minute.
If Beltre is the great clubhouse leader, why have Betancourt and Lopez regressed? Or maybe this clubhouse leader thing is crap, and each player should work with the people PAID to make them better, coaches and trainers, and be responsible for their own performance?
If there’s a problem with the way Ichiro plays the game, let the manager deal with it. That’s why there’s a manager, and this isn’t a plumbing company’s softball team.
Edited to add: All I had to hear was Raul was Beltre’s idea of a great player. If he can’t see how much Raul was hurting the team by playing left field, he’s not a judge of who should be throwing home instead of the cut off man.
Keep piling on – you are just proving my point. I knew what the reaction would be. But it is your site, fire away. It is just amazing the reaction that any, I mean any, criticism of this guy gets. As I said, I am not blaming him for all or most of the Mariner’s problems, but I am willing to look critically at the whole team, not just 24 of them.
“Why not command Ichiro to break Bonds’ single season home run record and Hack Wilson’s single season RBI record. That’s the secret of managing. Wak should also command Wash to strikeout 314 batters and post a 2.24 ERA”
Nice try. I simply ask that a free swinging singles hitter actually hit in more situations with men on base. You distort it into me asking that he lead the league in homers. See Riggleman’s quote on “you need to be Boone” – he agrees with me. I am not asking him to hit 40 HRs.
“Ichiro doesn’t dictate where he will play in the lineup and the field. He has his preferences, like all players, but he was moved to center and has batted third before.”
Not much I can say if you actually believe that, but I have some Florida real estate to sell you if you do. Fact is that Ichiro is a more valuable player to the M’s in center with his speed and overall defensive ability and he should still be there.
This outfield has no power – none – and that is a problem. I am not saying that defense isn’t important and I will not miss Ibanez’s play in LF (and no I don’t want Junior out there either) – but you need to score runs as well. Zduriencik is smart enough to pick his battles as the new GM and I am sure he figured moving him back to CF wasn’t worth it. To his credit he went out and got a good prospect for center – let’s hope so. But I would argue we already had a very good centerfielder on this team.
Sure – go ahead and rip Torre too. He must have found those 4 rings in a cereal box.
You made a claim that we lack objectivity when it comes to Ichiro. We pointed to the gold standard in objective systems for evaluating Ichiro’s value, and it shows that he’s worth every penny.
Now, you have two options – you can admit you were wrong and retract your claim of bias, or lose all credibility and continue to defend a ridiculous point.
That’s up to you.
A cereal box that cost $200 million.
Yes! Defending claims that we’re biased by proving we’re right ONLY PROVES WE’RE BIASED!
Clearly the only correct path there would have been to be wrong but agree with you. Sorry. We’ll do that immediately.
He’s right, everyone! I’ve seen the light! Ichiro sucks! He should hit more with men on base! And uhhh.. Joe Torre sucks, though I’m not sure why I’m saying that!
You said a manager like Torre would have “the stones” to confront a player who insisted on playing a position, when he would be more valuable elsewhere. I mentioned a position on the Yankees that has been filled during the last few years by the lesser defensive player, in theory because said player doesn’t want to move.
RosanjinScholar-
I responded and showed how the cornerstone of your argument was factually incorrect. You then claim that people are “piling on” by continuing to show you how you were wrong.
You’re acting like the people who say that Beltre is under-achieving because he’s not putting up the numbers he did in his walk year with the Dodgers. When Dave, DMZ, and posters here respond with something like “Beltre was paid $50.6M and contributed $56.9M worth of runs as a Mariner and has actually outperformed his contract” those people get mad because they don’t like being proven wrong.
Hey! Puckett & Furness must be Loyal USSM readers! They too have been irrationally hypnotized into thinking that Ichiro is worth what he makes, and that it is wrong to blame him for the team’s struggles when he is doing just what he did when they were winning, and not coincidently had a better team around him. There was also a comment about JJ and glass houses …
ok… i don’t feel bad for Miguel Batista, because he’s going to get paid $9 million this year to do whatever he does and not do it very well. I can understand the Mariners could and probably should not care less about what he gets paid next year, because they’re paying him for THIS year.
However, I can sympathize with Miguel on this a little. This is his livelihood we’re talking about. I think it’s easy to look past this as fans. He is going to pitch next year. Some team is going to want him to pitch for them, and rightfully so. He might not be great, but he’s also not the worst pitcher in baseball. There are worse pichers who will get paid more to ply their trade next year. Mariners fans all wish some other team was paying him $9 million to do whatever this year, but that’s why the Mariners have a different GM in place now than when he signed.
Some teams next year are going to base what compensation they offer Miguel on the numbers he puts up this year… and many of them only care about wins or saves when it comes down to it (yes, I’m looking at you, Jim Bowden). Therefore, pitching in middle relief will do absolutely nothing for Miguel, even if he excels at it. In fact, any GM worth their salt, is going to use that to offer him LESS money.
If the Mariners aren’t going to use him to start (which they shouldn’t ever have to) or close (actually wouldn’t be that bad, considering they could use their “better” relievers in higher-leverage innings), they should probably look to send him somewhere as soon as possible… and do it completely under the veil of “Miguel’s benefit”, making sure every potential free agent from here to eternity knows that’s exactly why they’re doing it.
I certainly want the Mariners to be able to sign players better than Miguel Batista, now that the Marinershave a GM who can spend wisely… and I would hate for the Mariners to lose out because, in the eyes of a young player coming into his prime, signing with the Mariners might mean a potential big pay day down the road.
I would either make Batista the closer or work him out as a starter and try hard to work out a trade… and if he goes out and sucks like last year, then it was his fault anyway.
Where could the Mariners send him? Right now, I don’t know if another team would take him even if the M’s ate $8M of the 9 he is owed this season. Maybe if he has a good start to the year as a “proven closer” the team can ship him out without eating the whole contract.
I don’t think any team in baseball would take him and his salary unless he doesn’t suck… it’s a win-win for the Mariners either way to make him the leading candidate to either close or stretch him out as a starter… that way he either is valuable to another team and you get something (anything) in return for him… or he sucks and you can do whatever you want with him and he can’t say diddly about it.
Fact is that Ichiro is a more valuable player to the M’s in center with his speed and overall defensive ability and he should still be there.
Which is irrelevant to the topic of whether or not Ichiro does what’s best for the team. For whatever reason, the team asked him to move back to right field. Ichiro said:
Maybe they think it will help him stay healthy as he moves into the later years of his career. Maybe they think he just wasn’t all that good in center. Who knows? But the fact is Ichiro was asked to move to center, and he obliged. He was later asked to move back to right, and he obliged.
If you’re looking for a reason to criticize Ichiro, you’re probably better off going with hearsay and rumors, because at least those aren’t demonstrably false. But criticizing him for doing exactly what the team asks him to do is running counter to what you’re trying to do.
How to lose 100 games in three easy steps:
1. Get no offensive production whatsoever from SS, 1B, DH, C, CF.
2. Get poor to abysmal defense from LF, SS, C, 1B, CF.
3. Get consistently mediocre to downright terrible pitching from over 1/2 the staff….Batista and Putz most certainly included!
Ichiro’s contribution to this collective of individual performances is what exactly?
Stat hounds feel free to correct me if I’m in error here……
I have read a few different analysis of base stealing that all the draw the same conclusions about the diminishing returns of the steal. Basically if you’re not 80-85% successful on steal attempts the outs you’re giving up are more detrimental to the offense than the gains from the bases you’re picking up.
Perhaps Ichiro understands this? I trust his baseball intelligence in evaluating factors like the pitcher’s move to 1st, time to the plate, catcher’s arm, and the overall game situation. Or to put it another way, he probably knows the craft a little better than Mr. Putz.
“Fact is that Ichiro is a more valuable player to the M’s in center with his speed and overall defensive ability and he should still be there.”
No he is not. Right now, he is not the best CF on the team. With the current roster, his skills benefit the team most as a RF.
Basically if you’re not 80-85% successful on steal attempts the outs you’re giving up are more detrimental to the offense than the gains from the bases you’re picking up.
Right, although I thought the break-even point was closer to 75%
“‘Ichiro doesn’t dictate where he will play in the lineup and the field. He has his preferences, like all players, but he was moved to center and has batted third before.’â€
Not much I can say if you actually believe that, but I have some Florida real estate to sell you if you do.”
Actually, I do believe that, and yes, I am certain that there is a lot of real estate in Florida that is for sale. You might not be able to sell it, but unsold or for-sale properties certainly exist in Florida and elsewhere.
Tango has a nice article about the controversy over Ichiro’s fielding stats, but whatever the rough stats are, it’s pretty clear he’s a better fielding right fielder than center fielder.
Undoubtedly, Ichiro as right fielder presents a challenge to a general manager to get power from less traditional positions. I think the strategy of starting with improved fielding and its likely effect on the morale of the pitching staff is a good one, given that fielding is underpriced in this market and there were no magic bullet upgrades offensively available this offseason. We’re not winning any pennants with one-and-a-half power positions (3B and RF when Branyan plays). I don’t think that’s Ichiro’s fault.
so he might know his capabilities better than others? Like he might know when to steal a base, or something? nah.
Wow. Those Riggleman quotes are great! He’s just proverbially kicking some folks right in the nuts. His comment here (referring to a talk he had with the “complainers”):
Some scathing stuff! He’s pretty much telling everybody that the ones who were vocal about Ichiro were the pitchers. He then goes on to specifically name Silva (who was already known) and then Bedard as well. With Putz’s comments and with Beltre’s comments (where it seems that if the position players did have a problem they weren’t vocal about it), and Washburn’s forked tongue on Jojima, it’s becoming clear which side of the team was really the cancer.
I also love this quote (about Ichiro’s place in the offense):
Someone call Greg Anderson, we need some clear up here STAT!
Several people here have referred to Larry Stone as a “sportswriter”. This is not only wrong, but rather nasty. Mr. Stone writes about baseball, but he is not a member of those ignorant, opinionated shit lapdogs known, in shorthand, as “sportswriters”..
Putz needs to talk to non-pitchers and people who weigh less than their monthly salary again.
I’m sure no one is still looking at this thread, but I’m sorry, this comment really bugs me:
You’d like him to get into more situations with men on base, or you’d like him to hit better when put into that situation? Ichiro is a lead-off hitter, so you’re either asking him to change his role on the team (which he’s quite capable of, but who do you suggest lead off instead, and why?) So criticizing him for doing what the team asks him to do seems rather lame. And it’s awfully hard for him to “hit in more situations with men on base” when 3581 (60%) of his 5929 career PAs have been leading of an inning; only 2085 (35%) of his PAs have occurred with men on base. By comparison, middle-of-the-order hitters get manny more opportunities: Manny Ramierez has had 4573 (50%) of 9006 career PAs with men on; Pujols has had 2643 (49%) of 5382 PAs with men on.
If you’re asking him to actually hit like a MOTO guy when he comes to bat with men on, well, he already does:
Men on:
Ichiro: .333
Manny: .330
Pujols: .337
RISP:
Pujols: .344
Ichiro: .341
Manny: .329
Bases loaded:
Ichiro: .434
Pujols: .378
Manny: .326
Bases loaded is a relatively small sample size, of course.
Now, Manny and Albert slug more so they’ll pick up extra bases in “clutch” situations, but the gap between Ichiro and Manny at least is not as large as you’d think — and Ichiro “actually hits” a lot more than Manny.
2 outs, RISP
Ichiro: .355 (.946 OPS)
Pujols: .329 (1.179)
Manny: .314 (1.067 OPS)
Late and close (7th or later with the batting team tied, ahead by one, or the tying run at least on deck.)
Ichiro: .336 (.830 OPS)
Pujols: .315 (1.055)
Manny: .276 (.901 OPS)
Of the three, you’d obviously want Pujols. But if you’re looking for a guy to “actually hit” in situations with men on base, you’d pick Ichiro over Manny.