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In Case You Weren’t Sure
Dave · April 9, 2009 at 10:54 am · Filed Under Mariners
Defense matters.
Seriously, welcome to Seattle, Messers Gutierrez and Cedeno. Please stay a while.
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75 Responses to “In Case You Weren’t Sure”
gwangung on
April 9th, 2009 3:01 pm
What do you do when the metrics hold diametrically different opinions of a player’s defensive ability?
I think we can say that if *all* metrics agree that a player is a defensive wizard, then he probably is. But we’re not yet at the point where each system (or the same system using different PBP data) agrees on a lot of guys.
Well, that’s why I think they’re Steam Age tools. I think the majority of players rank the same (the stats are ordinal tools), so that indicates to me that we’re on the right path. When they disagree, they need refinement, which is why folks are saying to look at a range of statistical tools…
Mid80sRighty on
April 9th, 2009 3:11 pm
Actually, GGs tend to go to hitters that show good defense.
I was being a bit facetious. I’m fully aware of the voter’s bias.
But c’mon. The guy pitched 8 shutout innings and no one here is willing to say a single nice thing about him.
That wasn’t Jarrod pitching today, it was his twin Pepe.
Actually, I will give The Bus some props. He pitched about as well as he’s capable of.
joealb1 on
April 9th, 2009 3:14 pm
I’ll say something nice about The Bus. He threw strikes.
joser on
April 9th, 2009 3:33 pm
The guy pitched 8 shutout innings
Not in a vacuum he didn’t. This was no 20K Randy Johnson shutout. With last year’s defense behind him, this was yet another 5-2 (or worse) Washburn loss.
He went 8 innings, which is an achievement this early in the season, and a gift to a bullpen (and a manager) for a team in the middle of a 7 game road trip. But he struck out four and walked one (4.5 K/9, 1.13 BB/9), which is in line with his historical averages (5.35, 2.77). He’s the same pitcher he was last year — a BOTR lefty starter getting paid more than a BOTR starter’s salary. If he was getting paid appropriately we might be a little kinder to him, but he is what he is. I certainly prefer to watch him pitch to Silva, but that’s not saying much.
The only skepticism, I think, we could have of these stats is their precision. I think we can be sure of their accuracy (i.e., folks these stats say are good defenders are usually good defenders, but we don’t exactly by how much they’re good defenders…yet).
With the exception of what Marc W mentioned, that’s sort of where I’m at. I believe defensive stats are certainly worth SOMETHING and can measure a guy’s value within a reasonable range. But precisely HOW MUCH is what I’m skeptical about.
But whatever that number is w/r/t Franklin Gutierrez and Endy Chavez, it’s a whole heck of a lot more than Raul Ibanez and Griffey…
And I’ll add that I thought at the time that the M’s got a STEAL for Putz. I valued Gutz for more than his glove, and saw him as the guy that could make even casual M’s fans forget about Mike Cameron.
joser on
April 9th, 2009 3:53 pm
BTW, for all you cool kids who are up on the Web two-point-oh-yeah intratubez, and also are fans of Mr “Death to Flying Things,” there’s apparently a facebook page for him (but probably not by him, or even visited by him) where you can be his friend and express your affection (just as soon as he gets a picture that is rid of that disgusting Indians cap).
manny ortez on
April 9th, 2009 4:01 pm
I’m a n00b here but I submit that Senor Muerte por Cosas Volantes would be a great nickname for Gutz.
Breadbaker on
April 9th, 2009 4:08 pm
And I’ll add that I thought at the time that the M’s got a STEAL for Putz. I valued Gutz for more than his glove, and saw him as the guy that could make even casual M’s fans forget about Mike Cameron.
May I please agree with the first comment entirely while disagreeing strongly with the second?
We not only got a steal for Putz and Green, because we could replace them with arms on hand and arms picked up, but given that we apparently have used our last three first round draft choices on relievers, we have a serious pipeline of good relief arms whether we want them or not. So getting rid of the guys who could demand more money in advance of their demands is a smart move, even if the Morrow and Aumont moves to the pen are regretted and may not have been known at the time. So I agree 100% there.
On the other hand, there is no reason ever to forget Mike Cameron. The man who was asked to do the impossible (replace Griffey) and by the end of his first week was beloved and by the end of the first season was jumping into the mosh pit in center (clinching game ALDS) is someone we have no need to or desire to ever forget. And from a USSM standard, Cammie’s the one whose defensive stats stand up to his reputation and then some. Perhaps you might amend that to “can be spoken of in the same sentence as Mike Cameron.”
Someone at LL just put down on pixels what I was also thinking a little earlier when I first saw this post:
When you look up “a run saved is just as good as a run scored” in the dictionary, a photo of this game has to accompany the text…
Buhnerful on
April 9th, 2009 4:34 pm
Breadbaker, excellent comments. I was at a game in early April that first year Cameron was on the team. You could tell from the chatter in the stands that everyone already loved him.
And that four homer game? I’ve never sought to will something (and failed, anyway) as hard as I did in that at-bat for #5.
z4ec on
April 9th, 2009 4:44 pm
How come nobody is even mentioning Balentien?
4 hits out of 8 AB’s isn’t too shabby. Without his double in the 9th, the M’s wouldn’t have scored that insurance run. More importantly, no strike-out out of those 8 AB’s so far. He actually looks more poised at the plate and not over-matched like last season.
Because an eight at-bat sample size isn’t enough to tell us anything useful about his skillset, particularly when we have all of his minor league performance to look at for a more accurate picture?
z4ec on
April 9th, 2009 4:48 pm
And unfortunately 4 games into the season 8 at-bats are all we have. What do you expect? But like I said out of those 8 AB’s he’s looking very good. And no strike-out for a guy that struck out A LOT last season.
According to his FB page, which appears to be run by a fanatical female fan, his proper nickname is not “Gutz” but “El Guti”.
Breadbaker on
April 9th, 2009 5:59 pm
From Putz to Gutz: the Jack Zduriencik Story.
myohmy41 on
April 9th, 2009 7:02 pm
Gutz made of the best catches I have ever seen, but it has overshadowed the ridiculous play by Cedeno. Yes, I know it was Mike Redmond running, but still. Going from basically a full stop to a full sprint and throwing a dart to first off balance is pretty impressive.
BoiseMoose on
April 9th, 2009 7:15 pm
I’m loving the “new look” M’s. Not only is it nice to have some speed and defense to help the win/loss category, but its just a whole heck of a lot more exciting of a product to watch.
Breadbaker on
April 9th, 2009 9:10 pm
So I’m randomly watching a rerun of an old “Iron Chef” on FLN and I look up and see the “ceremonial cutting of the first daikon” for the New Year by Yokohama Bay Star’s star reliever . . . Kazuhiro Sasaki. He liked spicy food.
jamesllegade on
April 10th, 2009 9:34 am
I nominate “the Big FraGu” as Franklin Guitierez’ nickname.
Any takers?
DizzleChizzle on
April 10th, 2009 11:15 am
A quote from John McGrath’s article today pretty much sums up how much better this outfield is.
What I didn’t know is how Chavez would challenge pop-ups presumed to be lost-cause fouls. In the opener, Chavez ran about a half-mile to make a play in front of the Twins’ bullpen. He was denied – he landed on his back – but if the same foul ball is hit in 2008, Raul Ibañez never even shows up on the TV screen.
Well, that’s why I think they’re Steam Age tools. I think the majority of players rank the same (the stats are ordinal tools), so that indicates to me that we’re on the right path. When they disagree, they need refinement, which is why folks are saying to look at a range of statistical tools…
I was being a bit facetious. I’m fully aware of the voter’s bias.
That wasn’t Jarrod pitching today, it was his twin Pepe.
Actually, I will give The Bus some props. He pitched about as well as he’s capable of.
I’ll say something nice about The Bus. He threw strikes.
Not in a vacuum he didn’t. This was no 20K Randy Johnson shutout. With last year’s defense behind him, this was yet another 5-2 (or worse) Washburn loss.
He went 8 innings, which is an achievement this early in the season, and a gift to a bullpen (and a manager) for a team in the middle of a 7 game road trip. But he struck out four and walked one (4.5 K/9, 1.13 BB/9), which is in line with his historical averages (5.35, 2.77). He’s the same pitcher he was last year — a BOTR lefty starter getting paid more than a BOTR starter’s salary. If he was getting paid appropriately we might be a little kinder to him, but he is what he is. I certainly prefer to watch him pitch to Silva, but that’s not saying much.
With the exception of what Marc W mentioned, that’s sort of where I’m at. I believe defensive stats are certainly worth SOMETHING and can measure a guy’s value within a reasonable range. But precisely HOW MUCH is what I’m skeptical about.
But whatever that number is w/r/t Franklin Gutierrez and Endy Chavez, it’s a whole heck of a lot more than Raul Ibanez and Griffey…
And I’ll add that I thought at the time that the M’s got a STEAL for Putz. I valued Gutz for more than his glove, and saw him as the guy that could make even casual M’s fans forget about Mike Cameron.
BTW, for all you cool kids who are up on the Web two-point-oh-yeah intratubez, and also are fans of Mr “Death to Flying Things,” there’s apparently a facebook page for him (but probably not by him, or even visited by him) where you can be his friend and express your affection (just as soon as he gets a picture that is rid of that disgusting Indians cap).
I’m a n00b here but I submit that Senor Muerte por Cosas Volantes would be a great nickname for Gutz.
May I please agree with the first comment entirely while disagreeing strongly with the second?
We not only got a steal for Putz and Green, because we could replace them with arms on hand and arms picked up, but given that we apparently have used our last three first round draft choices on relievers, we have a serious pipeline of good relief arms whether we want them or not. So getting rid of the guys who could demand more money in advance of their demands is a smart move, even if the Morrow and Aumont moves to the pen are regretted and may not have been known at the time. So I agree 100% there.
On the other hand, there is no reason ever to forget Mike Cameron. The man who was asked to do the impossible (replace Griffey) and by the end of his first week was beloved and by the end of the first season was jumping into the mosh pit in center (clinching game ALDS) is someone we have no need to or desire to ever forget. And from a USSM standard, Cammie’s the one whose defensive stats stand up to his reputation and then some. Perhaps you might amend that to “can be spoken of in the same sentence as Mike Cameron.”
Point taken, Breadbreaker…
Definitely no need to forget Mike Cameron.
Someone at LL just put down on pixels what I was also thinking a little earlier when I first saw this post:
When you look up “a run saved is just as good as a run scored” in the dictionary, a photo of this game has to accompany the text…
Breadbaker, excellent comments. I was at a game in early April that first year Cameron was on the team. You could tell from the chatter in the stands that everyone already loved him.
And that four homer game? I’ve never sought to will something (and failed, anyway) as hard as I did in that at-bat for #5.
How come nobody is even mentioning Balentien?
4 hits out of 8 AB’s isn’t too shabby. Without his double in the 9th, the M’s wouldn’t have scored that insurance run. More importantly, no strike-out out of those 8 AB’s so far. He actually looks more poised at the plate and not over-matched like last season.
Because an eight at-bat sample size isn’t enough to tell us anything useful about his skillset, particularly when we have all of his minor league performance to look at for a more accurate picture?
And unfortunately 4 games into the season 8 at-bats are all we have. What do you expect? But like I said out of those 8 AB’s he’s looking very good. And no strike-out for a guy that struck out A LOT last season.
For those of you who want a video of the Gut catch, you can find it here.
Because the topic of this thread is defense, and he hasn’t done anything especially notable in that regard?
[meta]
According to his FB page, which appears to be run by a fanatical female fan, his proper nickname is not “Gutz” but “El Guti”.
From Putz to Gutz: the Jack Zduriencik Story.
Gutz made of the best catches I have ever seen, but it has overshadowed the ridiculous play by Cedeno. Yes, I know it was Mike Redmond running, but still. Going from basically a full stop to a full sprint and throwing a dart to first off balance is pretty impressive.
I’m loving the “new look” M’s. Not only is it nice to have some speed and defense to help the win/loss category, but its just a whole heck of a lot more exciting of a product to watch.
So I’m randomly watching a rerun of an old “Iron Chef” on FLN and I look up and see the “ceremonial cutting of the first daikon” for the New Year by Yokohama Bay Star’s star reliever . . . Kazuhiro Sasaki. He liked spicy food.
I nominate “the Big FraGu” as Franklin Guitierez’ nickname.
Any takers?
A quote from John McGrath’s article today pretty much sums up how much better this outfield is.
Hopefully