Wak And Coaches Fired
Dave · August 9, 2010 at 12:14 pm · Filed Under Mariners
ESPN 710 is reporting that the mariners have fired Don Wakamatsu and his coaches.
Quick reaction: He didn’t deserve this. The egos and poor performance of the players made this happen. Maybe it had to, given clubhouse dynamics, but I won’t lay the unrest at Wak’s feet. The grumblers are the ones to blame here, not the guy they grumble about.
I was poking fun at a previous typo.
@SeattleGuy527 I get that it was lip service – I’d just like to hear from Jack Z’s lips how long he thinks things have been going wrong and what the tipping point if any was.
Because on an organizational level this is something like the fourth straight manager they’ve hired that didn’t last longer than two years. This is IMO going beyond the general manager now and suggesting a bigger problem.
Lincoln and Armstrong — j’accuse. Again evidence suggests to me that they are either meddling, incompetent or both since those two are the only common element in this front office since Lou’s last season…somebody has to be accountable for all these epic fails because this team’s been spinning its wheels for a long time now.
So, who does this leave in charge in Tacoma? Steinmann filled in last time. Does he come back?
Oh, goody. Another deck-chair re-arrangment on the Titanic!
Is that Bobby Valentine I see on the horizon? Sure looks like him.
Just think, in another year Jack Z (in whom I definitely do not trust) will be out the door as well, and we’ll be able to start a five-year plan all over again.
I recall, during one of the “rebuildings” of the 1980s, one local columnist stating that the sign of truly bad teams like the Ms were that they were always in a perpetual rebuilding mode, without anything ever getting any better. I guess, for the sake of predictability, it’s “nice” to see the current Ms return to the spirit of the club during the Argyros era.
My only question for when attendance falls off a cliff in the coming year: have we heard any news of Oklahoma City starting to build an MLB-ready baseball stadium lately? After all, you know what they’ve always said about Seattle not being a baseball town…
This has not shaken my trust in Zduriencik at all. If anything, it has shown that he is not afraid of making painful moves to benefit the team in the long run.
The press conference will begin momentarily.
By all accounts, Wak is a nice guy and a good instructor but his tendency to over-manage had grown out of control. “Putting things in motion” or “kick-starting the offense” does not mean using the entire lineup to carpet bomb the league with bunts, steals and all that chippy crap that hitters just love, especially when all they want to do is square a few balls against the freaking Royals and get on a roll.
The squeeze attempt that surprised nobody yesterday may have been the straw that broke Z’s back.
The tipping point could have been related to the decision to execute a suicide squeeze play with a LH hitter at the plate yesterday (mentioned in brevity a couple of times above).
Simply stated – it’s never done. Not at any level. There is a reason that it is never attempted. The players were probably left shaking their heads at the decision – in a season that was already full of “head shaking events,” in-house issues and a Schleprock atmosphere. If there was a camera on Z in his booth at the time of the play, it would be great to see what his reaction was. He probably started filling out the unemployment forms for Wak on the spot.
It’s as logical a reason as any (if looking for one, specific tipping point).
Good guy, deserved better – didn’t get it done, didn’t have a lot of resources to get it done. It’s pro ball and everyone is ultimately evaluated on one thing. They know that going in. They are reminded of it when they go out.
This is garbage. Did I mention the Sounders are playing well? This is frustrating. I won’t start typing bad words.
Yeah, but he didn’t, and if the Mariners were 64-47 I probably wouldn’t even have made that comment, nor would Wak have been fired, and most importantly Dave probably wouldn’t have started this thread. So what’s your point, or do you have one?
-My State of the Union-
I’ve been a fan of the Mariners my whole life, but have only lived in Seattle the past 3 years. So seeing this organization from a far and up-close, This is what I come away with comparatively speaking:
PROs- Best New-era Stadium. Positive, Local, Supportive Fan Base. Felix and Ichiro.
CONs- Lack of Accountability (from Managers and it’s Fans). Lack of Passion (Players, Managers and Fans). Excitement of ballpark experience. No Nation-Wide Interest in team. Lack of Exciting players (minus Felix). Lack of Hard-Nosed Swisher-Pedoria Type players. Lack of MLB-Top Shelf Slugger or even hitting Prospect.
What does this have to do with Wak being fired? It gives the M’s a chance to fix a lot of cons by hiring a better fit for their next manager. For themselves, the organization, fans and Free Agents, they need to become a National-Recognizable team. They need to get tougher, if you will. They need to get more exciting.
Wak helps in NONE of those categories. Everything the M’s are centered around is being a nice, local, conservative baseball team that every now-and-again, might make a run at the playoffs.
Dream Bigger. Get a fiery Big Name manager. Get the M’s on ESPN a bit more because of him (which in turns makes the players feel like their being watched more = accountability).
This has not shaken my trust in Zduriencik at all. If anything, it has shown that he is not afraid of making painful moves to benefit the team in the long run.
Really? So is this something else we can blame on Bill Bavasi/Don Wakamatsu/Howard Lincoln/Chuck Armstrong, like everything else bad that’s happened this year?
Here’s a question- so if he hired the wrong guy the first time, how do you know he won’t screw up the second time?
Heck, from the sounds of the press conference, even Zduriencik isn’t THAT confident in his infallibility.
My point is that saying Figgins should be canned is old style thinking. It’s not particularly based in reality or in statistical trends; it’s much more likely Figgins will be returnign to close to his previous levels of productions.
Similarly, the firing of Wakamatsu is a product of unclear, muddy thinking. As pointed out before, this is an organizational trend, across two GMs. This makes me want to stop and not react with the first impulse that crosses my mind. Why is this occurring?
[stuck keyboard]
“Joey Cora or bust”
I think they already learned their lesson about promoting bench coaches … at least I hope so.
Although Cora would fit the prequisite 1995 connection, yes in fact he’d probably be the archetypal Lincoln/Armstrong hire after this debacle.
Am okay with this decision, although I agree that Zduriencik remains on the hot seat. The fan base expected around 91 wins, Jack built the team for around 81 (based on pre-season projections for the spring roster), but Wakamatsu had them on pace for 61.
Re. blame for player underperformance: I agree with codybond31. Underperformance by one person is a personal problem; underperformance by a whole group is a management problem. Which is more likely: That the entire starting lineup independently happens to perform below projections, or that a bad clubhouse environment drags multiple people down at the same time?
If it’s suggested that keeping a winning attitude in the clubhouse isn’t the manager’s job: My guess is that Lou Piniella, for one, would disagree. And indeed… how is that different from any other management job in the world? And yes, of course I agree that winning helps chemistry and losing hurts it– but my point is that losing doesn’t have to spiral out of control the way it has this year. It’s management’s job to keep on top of things as the season goes along, so that this doesn’t happen.
Assuming that Wakamatsu was going to have been replaced at year-end anyway: I agree with pulling the plug now. The advantage I perceive is in (1) finding out whether Darren Brown can reset the clubhouse environment well enough that the players (especially the hitters) get back to hitting the way they did in previous years, and (2) if Brown succeeds, finding out which of the hitters were just dragged down by the situation and which may have bigger issues. In both cases, that’s valuable information going into next year. If they had let Wakamatsu continue out of inertia, there’s be less chance of learning something.
There are, to be sure, a few issues from this year that look to me like Zduriencik’s responsibility. In Jack I would still like to trust. I’m willing to give him another chance after this year. This year has reduced my level of trust, but today’s decision doesn’t reduce it further.
Unlike Don Wakamatsu, Jack Zduriencik has demonstrated an acute ability to learn from his mistakes.
My first impression of Don led me to believe he was a strong, soft spoken, and no bullshit kind of fellow.
What I have seen the last few weeks is a guy who resorts to tired cliches, downplays problems and insists that the team is playing, “good baseball” in spite of overwhelming evidence.
Whatever strengths he had in 2009 were not seen on the field this year.
Going forward, I think that finding the next candidate will be less about giving someone with potential a chance, and more about finding a seasoned veteran who understands and embraces the long term plan.
So basically what your advocating is that it’s ok to suck at the plate and on the field for 3 months without any consequences, not even an extended benching?
I agree.
I would bank on it being a former MLB player (not just a cup of coffee player), who had a legitimate MLB career. Hurdle, Cora, Sandberg? Sweeney?? … someone who actually played and can relate well to the players. Good, bad or indifferent, that is the direction I see the team heading toward.
When things go bad (and they do for every team – at some point – every year), the players won’t be able to blame the coach of the future for having “never played.” At some point along the way, during this miserable season, I thought I heard that type of inference in regard to Wak. I may be mistaken though.
I don’t think he is/was advocating that at all. Also, you do realize you are talking about the teams second leading (regular) hitter (avg) … right?
Could this be an example of too much Matt Pittman “he’s a jerk” influence. Figgins is a ballplayer and had a bad 90 games – which cost the team, but it didn’t cost us 23 games in the standings. He has arguably “found his game.”
Figgins is not the problem. The only “advocating” I could gleen from the above referenced post (that you found objectionable) was that Figgins would end up playing to the levels referenced on the back of his baseball card. The poster was correct … or will likely be close to it by seasons end. He referenced statistics and time proven metrics.
Leave the Figgy bashing to Matt. He handled it well.
You know what would have helped from Figgins?
Spending less time arguing/fighting with the manager in the dugout and more time trying to not have a bad 90 games.
A guy who is stinking it up on the field should be trying to not stink on the field instead of trying to slug the manager in the dugout.
Bobby Cox once said it takes 7 years to truly turn around a baseball organization. Baseball GM is a unique position because no other sport has such an in-depth developmental system.
As a Mariner fan this all SUCKS! I feel like it’s Groundhog Day… Optimism followed by disappointment followed by housecleaning.
Emotions aside though.. I still feel like Jack Z can lead us into contention. We have to weather this, and we have to be patient. It SUCKS!!!! But there really is no other alternative is there?
Unlike Don Wakamatsu, Jack Zduriencik has demonstrated an acute ability to learn from his mistakes.
Really? How can we say that? The new full-time manager hasn’t been hired yet. Or is there another mistake you can identify that he learned from?
The bottom line is trust is earned. 100 losses and fired managers doesn’t earn you anything. 2009 earned GMZ a good deal of leash, but I think this is more a case of “not enough data to come to a final conclusion yet”.
Having Lou did not get the Mariners on ESPN more. Winning games got them on ESPN more, and that was still not with any great frequency.
What I’m saying is that advocating he should be canned is not very smart, and is more from emotion than anything like rational thought.
And replace him with who? Josh Wilson everyday?
Figgy got a fire lit under him by a manager he didn’t respect. Going forward there will be no more excuses for him.
I want to ask all you Figgy haters something, why is it he’s the blame here yet the BP is not? Look at how many games blown by the BP this season. Sure Figgy’s defensive miscues haven’t helped but c’mon.
Thank you.
This seasons problems have been solely due to:
1) Bad bullpen. Everybody there deserves the blame for the mess.
2) Griffey/Sweeney/Byrnes/Tui. Coming out of spring training Wak rewarded three of those guys with jobs on the 25 man due to their March performance against scrubs and other pitchers fighting for jobs. Sure, Sweeney had a nice little run but we all knew he’d fail thanks to his back issues.
3) Wak’s weird love for RoJo. I am sorry but for all of Moore’s flaws early in the year, he seemed to start hitting right around the time of his injury. He rotted in AAA and tore it up while RoJo stunk it up.
4) Management’s love of promoting guys like Jamie Wright, Sean White, Chris Seddon and not giving decent looks at better relievers on the farm.
Maybe Z does deserve some blame here but to sit here and single out Figgins because he got pissed at the manager is baffling to me when there are so many other issues that stand out to me.
This may be a minor detail, but I found it significant. After trying it the “feel good” way, we are getting younger without sentiment.
Currently, the oldest players on the roster are Ichiro, B. Sweeney, Woodward, Wright and Branyan in that order.
Last year, the oldest players were Ken Griffey, Miguel Batista, Jamie Burke, M. Sweeney and Ichiro in that order.
Three fifths of those players returned for 2010, but Ichiro is the only player on either list who is a lock for next year.
Anyone who stands in the way of a young player’s development, or fails to reinforce the concrete fundamentals of the game will be fired or let go.
Sure, the jury is still out, but on balance, Jack Zduriencik has been pretty solid so far.
Littlesongs, Frankie Gutierrez and locking up Felix have been two items Z deserves a ton of props for.
I agree Beady, and that just reinforces what I was saying. Instead of committing long term to big free agents this off season, he made modest acquisitions, invested in our future, and flipped our superstar one year rental into top prospects.
EC wanted a mistake that Jack has made and moved past. I think that trying to compete in the division and push a youth movement, while at the same time bringing in old veterans was a mistake. It was as if the older players were retained to help Wak keep control in the clubhouse, rather than contribute on the field.
Jack seems to have trimmed those priorities down to competing in the division and pushing a youth movement. A wise old salt at the helm might be exactly what this young team needs going forward.
Wow – really … this is what happened huh? He actually tried to slug his manager … and you were the one who broke the news?
I never said Figgins was the only one to blame. There were numerous failures this year and Wak was just one of them. Yes, I will admit that “canned” was an emotional response from me but that doesn’t mean in no way shape or form that Figgins is the sole reason why the M’s are a failure. I made that reference to point out that Wak is not the only one to blame for this disaster of a season.