M’s May Have A Manager – It’s Not Valentine
Larry Stone has the story on his blog. Bobby Valentine has been told he will not get the Mariners job, and rumors are swirling that the team may have already made their decision. If that is true, then the choice will come from the group that interviewed this week – Eric Wedge, Lloyd McClendon, John Gibbons, or Cecil Cooper. It could also be Daren Brown, hypothetically, but I don’t know anyone who actually thinks he has a real shot at this thing.
More to come, obviously.
Update: Buster Olney just sent out the following on Twitter. “Heard this: Eric Wedge did very, very well in his interview with Seattle Mariners. Wedge would be a good fit in Seattle; he’s experienced, he’s prepared to help with the rebuilding of the team,and a good organizational guy.” You can probably put two and two together.
Another update: Ken Rosenthal says John Gibbons has been told he’s out, too. All signs pointing to Eric Wedge at this point.
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Eric Wedge, Lloyd McClendon, John Gibbons, or Cecil Cooper?????? Honestly, none of those names are making me excited. Ahhhh, so excited for another few more years of less then mediocre baseball. I really hope that I’m wrong, but I’d bet that I’m not.
No managerial name would make me excited, just as no name would make me morose, because managers just don’t matter much. I guess if you find base-throwing tantrums entertaining there’s nothing here for you, but that’s a good thing as far as I’m concerned.
Of all the moves the M’s make this offseason, this is the least interesting to me (though among the highest-profile). Let’s just get it over with: let the manager say all the usual things about “turning a clubhouse around,” and “instilling a culture of winning,” and “welcoming the challenge to bring a world champion to Seattle.”
Then we can move on to the interesting part of the offseason: Z’s deals for the guys on the field who will actually make any of that happen.
Or not. These are the M’s, after all.
M’s won’t hire Valentine because Valentine won’t be Chuck and Howies puppet.
If it’s one of these guys, I am questioning what the point was in firing Wakamatsu, other than doing the ritual of “See how important we take having a bad season! We’ll fire some people! That’ll show you we’re serious about winning!” the M’s have engaged in as an organization in recent years. None of these guys have done anything in their careers to make me think they are going to distinguish themselves from any generic manager.
In my opinion, the instability in the organization is much worse of an outcome than the difference between Don Wakamatsu and (fill in the blank) as managers, or Bob Melvin and Mike Hargrove.
Oh, Eric Wedge and Milton Bradley on a team together again? This should be awesome.
I suppose that that reasoning would be valid to those that believe that HowChuck meddle in day-to-day operations if Valentine had truly been the front-runner as all reports seem to have indicated.
But until someone outs them, we’ll never be 100% certain.
I’m with Dave in his prior post. I have no idea what makes a good manager, so whether Valentine would have been the best candidate is beyond me. All I know is that it’s a rebuilding process and as long as we’re making significant strides to improve our long-term outlook, whomever they hire is fine with me.
The only person who should be putting “Heard this” on all of their tweets is Colin Cowherd.
I’m assuming Bradley still stays on the team (who would take him now), but if Wedge is hired, will people start wondering if Bradley is on the way out? And does it makes sense?
I have no idea what makes a good manager, so whether Valentine would have been the best candidate is beyond me. All I know is that it’s a rebuilding process and as long as we’re making significant strides to improve our long-term outlook, whomever they hire is fine with me.
OK, so if you have no idea what makes a good manager, then what makes you think Jack’s going to get it right the second time? Were the Mariners not rebuilding in 2008 when Wakamatsu got hired? What’s the new approach we’re getting? Or are we just going to hear typical <a href="http://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/20030227balls.shtml" baseball bromide BS come spring training?
Yea them releasing Lueke will be meddling and i believe they will have Z get rid of him and within 2 years if the next manager doesn’t win he will be replaced. We should of never fired Wak if we weren’t going to get a successful manager. You probaly also think it was Z’s idea to keep Griffey please it was Chuck and Howies they don’t care they probaly don’t even watch there product.
OK, I mean baseball bromide BS.
I like Wedge because it appeared that he handled young talent pretty well when he was with the tribe.
I’m not suprised even though I was kind of pulling for the guy. Hope Jack knows what he is doing here. I would think that after all the turnovers at manager the past few years the Ms would want to go with the safer pick. Guess we will see how this all works out next year.
Maybe hiring Eric Wedge will make Milton Bradley retire instead of just getting cut. At least the M’s wouldn’t have to pay Bradley then.
They’re still building their farm system which has gotten significantly better since Z has gotten here. But as I’ve said numerous times before, it takes at least 3 years for players from the draft to come up (Research the Reds’ team, I don’t feel like going over that again).
Still, they have their “storefront” (i.e. the Major League club) to deal with, and they know they can’t just throw people out there until the young’uns are ready.
I don’t think it was Z’s idea to keep Griffey, so in that sense they meddled there. But do they meddle to the point of completely ruining Z’s process? That I don’t know.
Also, if you’re going to attack me, you might want to learn how to spell.
Looks like Wedge might be the guy.
I can get behind Wedge as the new M’s manager.
I liked what he did here in Buffalo, when he was manager of the Bisons.
I’d be fine with Wedge as manager.
Where did i attack you? I just gave you proof of how this front office is run and why this team has no continuity we have gone through 11 managers now i just hope whoever is the next manager doesn’t have a fluke year otherwise if his next season is garbage he will be canned.
Everyone always gets baseball bromide BS come spring training, don’t they? When doesn’t that happen?
I do think they fired Wak just to show they cared they were losing, but that’s baseball SOP. The M’s didn’t invent it and I don’t think it shows anything about them other than they aren’t different than everyone else. Eric Wedge may not be particularly different than Wak, but I don’t think managerial approach was the M’s problem. What they need is players who can play baseball.
I was really pulling for V, but alright.
I’m not sure there’s a dime’s worth of difference between Wedge and Wak.
When I read the words “good organizational guy” I see “milquetoast who won’t rock the boat or question Howard & Chuck.” In other words, more of the same. This organization hasn’t earned one iota of trust over a managerial hire in almost a decade. I hope it works out for them.
Valentine would have been interesting in that he’s a bit of a character which plays well in this town, maybe he got better offers from other clubs he interviewed with.
Whoever takes this job over is going to lose a bunch of games over the next couple of years.
Re Wakamatsu firing.
Sometimes a situation gets into a death spiral that can only be stopped by bringing in a different manager. And I’m not only speaking of a sports team – this happens in all kinds of organization.
The new person doesn’t have to be intrinsically better; just different. But if you don’t do something, the situation continues to feed on itself and gets worse and worse.
That’s also why Wakamatsu, like many other baseball managers, will get another chance. GMs know that these things happen and that managers get dumped for reasons that aren’t necessarily the manager’s fault.
I’m not sure there’s a dime’s worth of difference between Wedge and Wak.
There’s probably two cents’ worth, not sure about any more than that. Wedge was Wakamatsu before Wakamatsu was, just that the Indians front office took a different path through the rebuilding cycle at the start of his tenure, which explains the divergence in their initial career arcs.
Sometimes a situation gets into a death spiral that can only be stopped by bringing in a different manager. And I’m not only speaking of a sports team – this happens in all kinds of organization.
The new person doesn’t have to be intrinsically better; just different. But if you don’t do something, the situation continues to feed on itself and gets worse and worse.
That’s also why Wakamatsu, like many other baseball managers, will get another chance. GMs know that these things happen and that managers get dumped for reasons that aren’t necessarily the manager’s fault.
I see. This is management by “whipping boy”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whipping_boy
In my opinion, well managed organizations have ways of holding people who create problems to account. Poorly managed ones use whipping boys.
Well if Wedge is going to be manager at least it means Whackjob Milton is outta here right?
I’m not so sure I agree in the situations such as this. Random stuff happens, good organization or bad, and sometimes it just comes together such that a death spiral develops and something needs to be done. Often the organization retains the person in some other position, to ease the situation and retain the talent.
I don’t see where the dismissal of Wakamatsu wasn’t done as a surrogate to punish someone else, so I’m not sure the whipping boy analysis works here.
++++++
Now had you cited the dismissal of Fusco as an example of management by whipping boy, then I would be in total agreement.
I hadn’t even thought of that but I’d sure hope so. Unless management wants to see a repeat of the Figgins/Wakamatsu dust up in the dugout.
They won’t be able to trade him for anything though, so they’ll have to just release him and eat his salary this year.
Well if they keep Milton on the team atleast theres some entertainment if they do get into a fight. Eric Wedge is good at devoloping younger guys but im not thrilled with the hire he was terrible managing in the playoffs.
Is it really worth it? Milton’s a reasonable bounce-back candidate, and we’re throwing him away for a manager, a position we largely agree has little effect
Even if Milton does bounce back it doesn’t really help. The M’s are building for 2012, not 2011 and he certainly won’t be back by then.
Give Milton’s at bats and playing time to someone who might be here in 2012.
Only if his raw skills haven’t deteriorated. Have they?
Eric Wedge did very, very well in his interview with Seattle Mariners.
Always wondered, how does one interview well for a manager’s position?
“yes, I think Chuck Armstrong is the finest executive in MLB.”
“Yes, Griffey is an icon.”
“Yes, marketing is more important than hitting behind a runner.”
“I love bobbleheads.”
“I prefer the yellow hydro…”
“My favorite year is 1995…”
John Heyman says it’s Wedge.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/baseball/mlb/10/15/wedge.mariners/index.html?eref=sihp
The link button doesn’t work for me here at work.
Compared to some of the guys dave listed, I would say he’s in the thick of things. He comes at no marginal cost, either.
As to raw skills, that’s a good question. Did anyone notice the JUMP in Beltre’s plate discipline numbers? Could Bradley pull that off?
Random stuff happens, good organization or bad, and sometimes it just comes together such that a death spiral develops and something needs to be done.
SO, OK, this isn’t management by whipping boy- it’s management straight out of The Lottery.
If it’s random, then why act like it’s someone’s fault to the point of firing people? Why is there any causal link between “death spirals” and managerial changes/retention? Why not just assume that you’ll eventually have good stuff happen randomly, too?
Now had you cited the dismissal of Fusco as an example of management by whipping boy, then I would be in total agreement.
I actually tend to see these as linked somewhat: “we screwed up so heads must roll”- and hallmarks of a poorly run organization. Firing someone you hired to take over a rebuilding team in 2008 because you need to spend 2010 rebuilding either means you probably screwed up somewhere in evaluating your managerial candidates in 2008, and you need to learn from it (in which case, what does Wedge do better than Wak? I don’t see it)- or the manager is essentially irrelevant to your rebuilding process, and is a figurehead you use to ritually disembowel, and show the fans that We Are Committed To Winning As An Organization when random crap and various mistakes hand you a poor season, which I think is ridiculous and misses the point- you need to think a lot deeper about failures than just finding some scapegoats in order to “stop a death spiral”.
Lol this probaly was the process no joke. Bobby probaly told them to quit living in the past and they didn’t like it.
(taken off the internet)
Eric Wedge’s managerial career in Cleveland:
2003–2005
Over his first three years as manager, the Indians improved steadily from fourth place in the American League Central Division with a 68–94 record in 2003, to 80–82 and third place in 2004 and to 93–69 and second place in 2005. The 93 wins in 2005 were the eighth most in the more than hundred-year history of the franchise and the team narrowly missed qualifying for the playoffs for the first time since 2001 when they were eliminated on the last day of the season. In the American League Manager of the Year balloting for 2005, Wedge finished as runner-up to Ozzie Guillén.
2006
The 2006 season was a disappointing one for Wedge and the Indians. Entering the season, they were expected to compete for the division title, but got off to a poor start and were essentially out of the race by mid-season, trailing the division-leading Detroit Tigers at the All-Star break by 18½ games. They finished the season in fourth place with a 78–84 record, 18 games behind the Central Division champion, Minnesota Twins.
2007
Wedge and the Indians had more success in the 2007 season going 96–66 and winning the Central Division Title for the first time since 2001. Wedge then led the Indians to beat the Yankees in four games to win the ALDS, and moved on to play the Boston Red Sox in the ALCS, where they lost in 7 games. Wedge received The Sporting News Manager of the Year Award and the MLB Manager of the Year Award for the American League in 2007.
********************
I think I’d take two 90+ win seasons in the next 5 years, two different Manager of the Year awards (and runnerup in another year), and being a game away from the World Series (eventually losing out to the Red Sox), versus what we’ve had the past few years.
(If you think about it, really, Wak’s biggest accomplishment was that he DIDN’T lose 100 games in 2009…).
I think I’d take two 90+ win seasons in the next 5 years, two different Manager of the Year awards (and runnerup in another year), and being a game away from the World Series (eventually losing out to the Red Sox), versus what we’ve had the past few years.
It’s silly to ascribe that all to Eric Wedge as manager.
In essence, what he’s “proven” is he doesn’t get in the way of good players, similar to Mike Hargrove, Lou Piniella, or almost anyone else- their teams win when they have talent, and don’t when they don’t.
I don’t particularly think Wedge’s body of work distinguishes him from anyone… and that includes Wakamatsu. (A little over a year and a half isn’t particularly indicative- go look at Bob Melvin’s career, for instance. If anything, I think 2010 proves that bad luck and bad decisions happen to everyone, even GMs who are bringing in “new school” philosophies.)
Eponymous-
Only point here was refuting the notion that he isn’t a successful manager (specifically the comment “I would have rather kept Wak if we weren’t going to hire a successful manager”). I certainly wasn’t promoting him as the 2nd coming. Just a bit dismayed at the continuing downer attitude on USSMariner when we hired what many folks considered the top managerial candidate available (the Cubs, Pirates, and Mets agreed anyways- he topped all their lists).
Whether you care to attribute anything to Wedge or not, he’s been more successful than Wak, and more successful than Bobby Valentine (same number of 90+ win seasons as a manager, in half as many years). And until there’s a better way to decide if a manager is good at his job, then winning percentages, and Manager of the Year awards, will have to do (or stuff like throwing bases, quitting in the middle of the season on a team with a winning record, etc).
Saying managers are not important in your opinion (if you’re coming from that angle, who knows, I’m not really sure) doesn’t refute whether they’ve been successful at it or not. Important or not, like any other job, they either succeeded or didn’t.
I like the choice. And I’ll take “not going to get in the way” as a positive trait. Certainly sounds like one, even when attached to a somewhat belittling tone.
PS- I don’t think Z will again bring a philosophy that believes you can win without offense. Bad luck might explain being in the bottom half of the league in scoring runs when you were expected to contend, but probably can’t account for scoring the least runs ever in the era of the DH (worse than even ANY NL TEAMS have ever finished, since 1973)… AND having the only OBP as a team below .300 (we rocked it at .298) in a full season during that era… AND beating the ’83 Mariners record for most games in a season with 4 or fewer runs.
PPS- And seriously…
“I don’t particularly think Wedge’s body of work distinguishes him from anyone… and that includes Wakamatsu.”
I’m sure you have some great reasons, but try a different perspective… Imagine it’s 2 years ago… BEFORE Wak had managed at all… Who would you be more excited about, Eric Wedge, or the guy you’ve never heard about, who’s never managed a game?