Hyphen Non-Tendered
Rather than offer Ryan Rowland-Smith a slight raise in arbitration, the Mariners non-tendered him today, making him a free agent. If they weren’t able to come to terms by now, it’s unlikely that they’ll agree after this. He’ll probably end up signing elsewhere to try and get a fresh start. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see him land in San Diego.
I will say that I don’t really get this. Given his 2010 season and the fact that he was a first year arbitration eligible, he wouldn’t have gotten more than a couple hundred thousand more than the league minimum. The team isn’t really saving any significant money here, so they’re basically just choosing to let him go try and reboot his career somewhere else. Unless they were completely convinced that he wouldn’t make it in Seattle, it seems like a waste. He’s never going to be a star, but there’s enough there to think that he could be an effective reliever, and Safeco is the perfect park for him to pitch in.
Given that the team found room for the completely useless Josh Wilson, I don’t see why they found it necessary to non-tender Ryan Rowland-Smith.
I don’t like Zduriencik anymore
You’re blaming the wrong person…Velocity was down..most signs pointed toward flaming out. He needs a fresh start.
I will say I was as surprised as any when he didn’t pan out as our 3rd/4th starter last year.
He’s panned out better than Bedard…
I love Hyphen, I hope he re-sign with us and become a great reliever or starter, anyway I wish you luck wherever you go
I assume that you are joking, but…
Erik Bedard WAR since 2008: 2.9
Ryan Rowland-Smith WAR since 2008: 0.6
Erik Bedard FIP in 2008/2009/2010: 4.32/3.55/NA
Ryan Rowland-Smith FIP in 2008/2009/2010: 4.53/4.20/6.55
The worst things about Erik Bedard are that he cannot stay healthy and that the Mariners traded 5 players to get him.
[J Dog beat me to it.]
The sunk cost on Bedard, i.e., the five players traded, are pretty irrelevant now. I’d say the idea that he’s willing to provide any potential upside if he can pitch again to the team that has shown him loyalty speaks well of him and the M’s both.
Stupid move, Hyphen could be a good reliever or a decent starter and you only pay him the minimun of the league, plus a lot of players in AAA are worse than him, bad move Jack…
Like I said.
I know that Bedard, when healthy, is a far superior pitcher. But Bedard’s never healthy. I expect him to muddle through ST and then go down again by Memorial Day.
Yes, I’m bitter.
Not our hated rivals!
Zduriencik said during a conference call tonight that the Mariners offered RRS a major league contract “on our terms,” but he declined.
It wouldn’t surprise me at all if Zduriencik wanted to bring RRS back as a reliever, but RRS declined and Jack didn’t offer him arbitration in order to let hyphen try and find some place that had room for him in a starting rotation.
Not sure where I should post this so I figured I would chime in with it here since we are talking about a non-tendered pitcher. Andrew Miller was non-tendered by Boston today and is still only 24 years old. He isn’t far removed from a top prospect status. Should the M’s have any interest in him?
from Greg Johns:
Starting pitcher Ryan Rowland-Smith, who struggled through a tough season in Seattle last year, became a free agent Thursday night as the Mariners chose not to tender him a new contract after the two sides couldn’t agree on a deal to avoid arbitration.
[snip]
Rowland-Smith’s decision was something of a surprise, given he made just $440,000 last year and wasn’t as big a financial risk as Lopez. But coming off a 1-10 season with a 6.75 ERA, the Mariners chose to cut ties with the 27-year-old rather than enter the arbitration process.
“We talked about giving him a chance to come back and be part of the organization on our terms [rather than in arbitration], but in the end Ryan decided our terms were not necessarily what his were, so there was a parting of the ways,” Zduriencik said in a conference call Thursday night. “In fairness to Ryan, we understand he went through a lot of things. He’s shown flashes, but the end of the day, the two sides didn’t meet. So as a result, we didn’t tender him a contract.”
Zduriencik said the door would be open for Rowland-Smith’s return if he doesn’t find what he’s looking for on the open market.
pleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease
<3 you hyphen
So what’s the real Josh Wilson story? Couple sources online say he was non-tendered, but King 5 and the Seattle Times both are reporting he signed a one-year Major League contract today (his first).
(Wonder if some folks mistakenly saw KC’s Josh Wilson got non-tendered… And assumed it was the M’s player instead…?)
The day will one day come when I read “<3" as "heart" and not "teabag."
But that is not this day.
I am trying to get this straight – RRS and Lopez either had to be signed to a contract, offered arbitration, or non tendered and so become free agents – do I have that right? But then Colorado must have offered Lopez arbitration? Or is there another phase?
Based on what Zduriencik said about the contract needing to be “on our terms” and that making the team out of spring training was an issue, I would interpret that to mean it was about the actual terms of the contract. It sounds like Rowland-Smith was mostly looking for a guaranteed contract, not one like Bedard where he could be cut and only receive 30-45 days’ pay. I don’t think it has anything to do with relieving or starting. That’s not a contractual issue, nor is Rowland-Smith in any position to request assurances about it, given his performance.
I’m gonna miss Hyphen. I still remember his “interview” of King Felix (and Cliff Lee) during 2010 spring training – he’s hilarious!
Okay, I’m juvenile, but that’s really damn funny. 🙂
On a related note, I’m not exactly sure what’s so appealing about RRS from a baseball standpoint. A straight mid-high 80’s ‘fastball’ and usually-miss curveball? His best pitch is probably his change, but even that isn’t mind-blowing.
Is it the accent? The ‘dash’ t-shirt? The tweeting with fans?
The guy is VERY replaceable.
You’re probably right. I didn’t see the comments by Zduriencik about making the 25 man roster being the issue.
If all we’re hoping to get from him at this point would be a decent middle reliever, (and declining velocity and FIP point that way) then why not give the chance to someone with even an outside chance to be a good set-up guy or say a #3 starter? We’re a couple years away from where a decent middle reliever does us any good anyway, so let’s see high-risk, high-reward guys?
Josh Wilson is “useless?” A good glove for cheap is hardly worth complaining about, even in passing. Let’s fix our major problems and then worry if maybe our backup IF is not good enough.
Besides, with Sweeney gone, the Paperboy can be the new whipping boy.
I like RRS but I agree that he’s very replaceable. He definitely wasn’t in any kind of position of strength in his contract negotiations so if he didn’t like what Jack Z was offering let’s wish him well elsewhere.
Shortbus-
That is the first time I literally “LOL”ed in a very long time…freaking hilarious!!!
Waco_Kid “Josh Wilson is “useless?” A good glove for cheap is hardly worth complaining about, even in passing.” All true, but we’re talking about Josh Wilson here. At best, mediocre glove. Would much prefer to see someone more versatile.
Lets face the facts here R.R.S. is a soft tossing lefty with no command and no upside. He will never be successful any where. Until they get rid of Jack
Wilson they need Josh to caddy for him. It’s a good signing.
Everybody loves Ryan, but I approve of this move. Soft-tossing lefties are a dime a dozen, and he’s no loss. Cesar Jiménez, healthy once more, will give them everything they thought they could get from Ryan.
Exact same thought, glad I’m not alone 😀
RRS had a Safeco era of 4.97 and a road era of 8.51 in 2010.
Ehh..kind of close. It’s not that they had to be “signed to a contract” by the deadline last night. It’s just that they had to be offered a contract by the deadline last night. And arbitration isn’t “offered” so much for these types of players as it is used if the two sides(player/agent and team) can’t agree by a certain date(so, it’d kind of different from free agent arbitration in that regard.) Lopez was traded before the deadline, and so it’s the case that Colorado will tender him a contract.
Note that the Red Sox, who traded for Andrew Miller a few weeks ago, turned around and non-tendered him, which is kind of silly, so it doesn’t always happen that you get tendered a contract after a team trades for you, but it would have been kind of silly for Colorado to trade for Lopez then turn around and non-tender him on the same day. And by silly, I mean a colossal waste. Other arb-eligible players such as Clint Barmes and Ryan Theriot were thought to be non-tender candidates with their old teams(the Rockies and Dodgers, respectively) and were then traded to new team(the Astros and Cardinals, respectively) and tendered contracts, which was the point of the trade–to secure their services and keep them on the 40-man rosters of their teams, rather than risk competing for those players with other teams once the players were non-tendered.
Also note that David Aardsma, Brandon League, and Jason Vargas were all tendered contracts, but they didn’t sign contracts yet, while Josh Wilson did. So, if in a few weeks you don’t hear news about those 3 signing, then they’ll probably go to arbitration. RRS wasn’t tendered a contract so he can become a free agent.
If any of them were traded(mainly, Aardsma or League), the same situation would apply with the new team. They could negotiate up to a certain point and avoid arbitration, or go to arbitration to decide on the amount of the 2011 salary past that point. And I’m not really sure when that point arrives…perhaps December 31st? Anyone?
Hope that helps. 🙂
They can negotiate all the way up to the point when they walk into the arbitration hearing.
Given that the team found room for the completely useless Josh Wilson, I don’t see why they found it necessary to non-tender Ryan Rowland-Smith.
Because the Mariners have very little infield depth (with dumping Lopez, they’re down to the Wilson non-twins, Tui and Figgins, which is a bad joke) and about 1241343 guys who either profile as “soft-tossing lefty” or “5th starter”?
I mean, really: Vargas, French, Olson, Jiminez. That’s plenty of guys to fill the “lefty who can’t break a pane of glass” spots on the roster. And yes, Safeco is a great place for these guys, but I do believe the Mariners play 81 games not at Safeco. You can’t have the whole pitching staff be flyball lefties who throw 88.
Yes, RRS is a good guy and this isn’t a champagne-spraying moment, but good grief, the team lost 100 games and RRS was part of that by being awful, as much as Lopez, Josh Wilson and so on. Someone was going to lose the game of musical chairs… and it turns out it was the guy who was going to get a raise if he stuck around.
By all means, lets not pretend that “utility” infielders who cannot hit arent available as well. The correct move in my opinion would have been to either offer Hyphen and Wilson, or offer neither of them.
In fact I’d almost say they could have used the Rule 5 to get another version (one that we haven’t seen try and fail several times) of Josh Wilson.
Crap
I think they can negotiate right up until arbitration is decided. I’m pretty sure I’ve heard about deals that have been finalized after presentations were made in the arbitration hearing.
For all we know, RRS was non-tendered because he said that he would not accept the offer he was given and would seek arbitration, while Wilson simply accepted the offer he was given. You can’t lay that at the M’s doorstep. I don’t blame them for deciding that RRS is pretty boring stuff and they they don’t have much reason to keep him unless it’s at a price they like.
All of this negative reaction over the release of a crappy pitcher.
Some defensive metrics, and I would think they are closer to what the Mariners actually use and are at least more reliable than UZR, rated Josh Wilson as a very good defensive shortstop last year.
I don’t know that I agree, but maybe they see Josh Wilson as at least a reliably good defensive shortstop that they may need when Jack Wilson gets injured again.
philosofool – I would suppose you are correct in that assumption. I still would prefer at this point that neither of them were around. I like RRS as a person (or at least what they show me of him on TV/Radio) but as a pitcher I’ve always been left wanting more when watching him. Great at times, but inconsistent. Seems like there are enough guys like that around that maybe management made a good choice in setting firm terms. They should be able to kick the tires on a few guys and get similar results.
Dave responding to Jason Churchill on twitter yesterday,
and now,
While I realize that there are other advanced fielding metrics, I am not very familiar with them. Could you let us know which metrics rate Josh Wilson asa very good defensive shortstop? Also, do you have any links?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/wilsojo03.shtml
Like I said I don’t know that I believe the baseball reference numbers. But I will say that I find them more believable and less volatile than the fangraphs UZR numbers.
Bad move Jack? Isn’t RRS the guy who turned down an offer that had to have been a decent offer considering his awful 2010?
Bad move RRS is more like it.
So Josh Wilson had a +12 Total Zone Rating at SS in 2010? However, it looks like his career Total Zone Rating at SS is +2 per year. Does Total Zone Rating have a sample size issue like UZR?
Does anybody have a link to +/- ratings?
Also it made sense to keep Josh Wilson seeing as how Jack Wilson is made of glass.
It’s felt by most people that really scrutinize the current defensive metrics that they all need much more time than batting stats to stabilize and be reliable.
Yes, that is exactly correct.
Why should they have wanted to offer Josh Wilson arbitration? He agreed to a contract before the arbitration deadline, likely for less than what he would have gotten had they offered arbitration to him.
That arbitration meeting would have been interesting:
M’s: “So, you were one of the worst pitchers in MLB history last year. We’ll give you league minimum, and allow you to be in the same room as Ichiro.”
RR-S: “Uhmm…”
M’s: “Take it or leave it.”
RR-S: “Uhmm…”
M’s: “Screw it, we’ll even let you stay in the team hotel, assuming you pay for your own room.”
RR-S (turning to agent): “Is that even legal, mate?”
Agent: “Legal or not, it’s probably the best you’re going to get.”
RR-S: “Can you guarantee at least one Fosters after the game?”
M’s: “You’ll get Hamms, and like it.”