Forbes on the Mariners
Forbes has an interesting article on the Mariners worth reading for some perspective on the team’s economic situation.
A lot of it won’t be a surprise to long-time USSM readers, but there’s still new information in here, particularly about the local economic impact of Ichiro-related tourism. Also lots of good stark figures about how huge their media deal with FSNW is, and how amazingly sweet their stadium lease is.
And fun facts like this, just after Armstrong is quoted saying “We don’t make money”:
By not bragging, maybe Armstrong hopes his players won’t ask for more money. The Mariners’ payroll last season was only $85 million, or just 50% of revenue. Teams with similar revenues, like the Dodgers, Cubs and Mets, all spent at least 57% of their revenue on players last year.
Two bits stuck out to me — “Ichiro trinkets adorn cell phones in Japan, where the Mariners’ theme song is a popular ring tone.”
The Mariners have a theme song? And not “The Mariners are playing hard-ball! Hit it again and again and again — hit it again!” What is it?
And in the sidebar, it sayd “For a small-market team, the Mariners do very well.”
I know it’s probably hard to believe, being out in New York and all, but there were three million people in the Seattle metro area last time the Feds published stats (check it out in my favorite Census publication ever in Excel or PDF). If you want small-market, you’re looking for Kansas City, or better yet Milwaukee (1.5m).
Anyway, check it out.
Comments
33 Responses to “Forbes on the Mariners”
You may want to correct the URL so that it points to http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2005/0425/086.html.
Fixed.
I know it’s probably hard to believe, being out in New York and all, but there were three million people in the Seattle metro area last time the Feds published stats (check it out in my favorite Census publication ever in Excel or PDF). If you want small-market, you’re looking for Kansas City, or better yet Milwaukee (1.5m).
Plus, the Mariners probably have the largest geographic area without a competing team. Oregon, Idaho, Montana…what other team do people have to root for? That may not directly translate into ticket sales, as people only travel to a few games per year, but it certainly helps in merchandise sales.
So I looked at the list and found 16 teams with demonstrably larger markets. (Toronto, NYY, Bal, Bos, CHW, DET, LAA, TEX, WAS, ATL, PHI, FLA, NYM, HOU, CHC, LAD) 5 clubs were materially the same (MIN, STL, SF, PHO, SD) and 8 that are smaller (TB, KC, CLE, OAK, CIN, MIL, PIT, & DEN). Denver was the real shocker. I always thought it was much bigger than that.
So I don’t think you could actually call Seattle a BIG market club. (I’m always fascinated by the chip that people from Seattle carry on their shoulder about the size of this city.) I’d argue that Seattle is a mid tier market. Am I missing the boat? Are you calling Seattle a large market club?
What, you haven’t heard the Mariners hit theme song, “Labrums Away”?
Don’t forget to include Vancouver, BC as part of the Mariners market. You’ll find more Mariners fans here than Blue Jays supporters.
Hey, now that Idaho and Montana have been mentioned as strong geographic areas, it makes me wonder why the M’s don’t have team in the Pioneer League at Advanced Rookie ball, rather than the AZL team that they’ve got at Peoria in Rookie ball?
I work at a hotel downtown, so I can attest to the drawing power of the M’s and Safeco field. Throughout the entire season, we get guests in from Eastern Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, BC, Alaska, and yes, Japan, who come to town with the intent of going to games.
Not only do these people go to games, they stay in hotels, and go to restaurants, bars, etc.
I don’t know if there’s ever been a hard study, but I would venture to guess that the M’s and Safeco Field have an positive economic impact that number in the hundreds of millions per year.
I’ll admit that with Seattle it’s somewhat iffy… But I also recently saw the New York Times call Oakland a “small market club”.
Given that the Census Bureau continues to do its mystifying split between San Francisco/Oakland and San Jose, the Greater Bay Area has a population of 5,859,559, making it the 4th largest metro region in the US.
If that’s a “small market”, then, yeah, I guess anything not NYC or LA is what they mean.
More than just “market size” is the wealth of that market. Seattle’s a pretty well-off area. Lots of dough to spend on trinkets.
And as people have pointed out, the population market includes far more than just Seattle. All over the state you see “Good Luck Mariners” on restaurant reader boards (though the Kidd Valley near me just says “Good Luck Baseball Teams” which is odd and funny). Vancouver, BC is worth at least a fraction of their 2-mil-plus. Portland less so, but still some. All told, the number of folks who have an interest in M’s baseball is probably comparable to the Bay Area, or close to it — and they have TWO teams.
I remember this Mariners theme song from when I was a kid. “The mariners are playing hardball/ and they’re going to hit the home runs!/ the mariners are playing harball/ hit it again and again and again/ HIT IT AGAIN!”
Wow! It brings back memories. Makes me happy to know it’s still out there…
I think by “theme song,” they probably mean the music that leads in and out of TV/radio broadcasts. In my trips to Japan and Okinawa, though, I’ve never heard one of these rings even once. Anybody else?
The M’s “theme song” must be the jingle that they play on the television broadcasts. That’s the only thing I can think of – maybe they play it when they broadcast M’s games in Japan.
And Jason, I beg to differ on M’s fans vs. Blue Jays fans in Vancouver. It’s always annoyed me how so many people in Vancouver root for a team two time zones away instead of one just a couple hours down the road. The only time most Vancouver baseball fans ever come down to see a game in Seattle is when the Jays are in town. I remember the difference in attendance at Jays-M’s games was quite noticable back in the days when the Blue Jays were great and the M’s sucked.
if the mariners are rolling in so much cash, are they ever going to become moneyball yankee/sox style teams? or would that take a steinbrenner/epstein at the helm?
#4, not to nitpick…ok, yes, to nitpick, but Baltimore is smaller according to the census data, not larger. It’s only half a mil less, so I guess you could argue it’s the same size, but that is one-sixth. Plus, I’ve been living in DC for the past few years, and there’s no question to me that Baltimore feels like a smaller market and a smaller city than Seattle. I put it with Pittsburgh and Tampa.
#8 hits it with regard to SF and Oakland. If Oakland is a small market team then the Mets are a small market team because they only have fans in Queens.
I remember reading in 2002 the Mariners were the 4th largest market in the MLB. Seattle is a big market team, not just because the Seattle Metro area is of decent size, but because of the large area that draws M’s fans, which covers really the entire northwest, namely Oregon.
I cant remember where, but another source in 2003 ranked the Mariners as the 9th most valuable franchise in the world. I think it was cited in a Seattle Times article but I can’t remember exactly who the source was that the Times cited.
Kearly I think I remember the same thing. Basically the Yankees were the only US team that made more money and all the others were soccer teams.
Is this the list you guys were referring to:
http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/press_release/0,1014,sid%253D9113%2526cid%253D40394,00.html
Re: #12
Toronto is definitely more remote (geographically and culturally) than Seattle, but Canadian pride dictates the Blue Jays will get their share of supporters. Plus, I understand a fair number of Vancouver, BC fans came down during the Twins series to see Justin Moreneau, who hails from the always-interesting suburb of New Westminster.
#12 For what is worth, which is probably not much, I’m a Mariners fan and I live in Vancouver, BC. I’m always annoyed when the sports channel here broadcasts Blue Jays games instead of M’s games, but I guess it’s only to be expected. The fact that Blue Jays have the precedence over the M’s when it comes to tv broadcasting probably indicates there are still more Blue Jays fans than M’s fans here. Then again, I rarely meet any baseball fan in real life. Most people here are more into Hocky (duh).
So I looked at the list and found 16 teams with demonstrably larger markets. […]
So I don’t think you could actually call Seattle a BIG market club. (I’m always fascinated by the chip that people from Seattle carry on their shoulder about the size of this city.) I’d argue that Seattle is a mid tier market. Am I missing the boat? Are you calling Seattle a large market club?
Yes.
No. My point was that it’s not a small market team, as described there. That doesn’t mean I wrote that it was a large market club.
Also, w/r/t the chip thing: I don’t see that, but I get annoyed when I travel and people think Seattle-Tacoma is some remote village in the NW corner of the country that has 500,000 people.
#8: re: the Bay Area
The Giants and A’s agreed some time ago to split the area. Oakland gets the East Bay, Giants gets the City, Penninsula, and the South Bay/Silicon Valley. This was of course before San Jose became the most populated city in the area. Granted territorial rights don’t mean all that much since the same media serves the whole bay, but the division does have some significance, for instance where each club can advertise on signs/billboards/busses. Based on this distinction (and perhaps using revenue stream figures), this is where the NY Times can say Oak is a small market team.
W/R/T the M’s theme song, the song I have on my phone is the one called “Zombie Nation,” by Kernkraft 400. It’s the sort of techno one that goes “Whoa oh oh oh oh…” that they play in “intense” situations. I know I’ve heard it in Baltimore and at Yankee Stadium, but it always reminds me of the M’s.
Regarding Matt Williams’ comment about geographic area: That’s true enough, at least in regard to the northern half of Oregon (which is where the majority of the population in said area resides, anyway). However, for some reason, most baseball fans that I’ve met in Montana and Wyoming are Twins fans.
Nice pull on the theme song, DMZ! I forgot that one…
Does anybody remember the theme song that would include, “Mariners Baseball, it’s big league stuff!”
I think it dates back to 1984/1985ish.
The Giants and A’s agreed some time ago to split the area. Oakland gets the East Bay, Giants gets the City, Penninsula, and the South Bay/Silicon Valley.
This isn’t true: the Giants and A’s assert they have territorial rights to San Jose, with the Giants alleging the A’s gave up their claim there for no reason. The A’s dispute that they ever would do something as stupid as that, and they’ve been fighting over it for years. Selig’s been dodging the issue. The A’s even explored paying off the Giants to stop fighting them on this, but the Giants demanded a ridiculous amount of money and the A’s went back to trying to get MLB to arbitrate the dispute.
I might regret this, but is there any web link to the “Hit it again” song? I only came to baseball late (1996) sinever heard it….
moneyball yankee/sox teams? I guess you didn’t read Moneyball. Tony Womack is not a “moneyball” player.
Chuck Armstrong is a liar, no surprise there.
I’d count Greater Vancouver as part of the Mariners’ market. There are 2 million people huddled just across the border to the north (2001 census).
Funny, I thought Vancouver was bigger than that. And I live here.
Back when the Mariners’ AAA team was the Calgary Cannons, I would have counted them as part of the M’s market, too (especially given their reliance on Spokane television) – that’s another million.
Incidentally, Calgary’s an awful place for baseball. It’s at altitude, and the weather is incredibly erratic.
I suspect the theme song is the song they play to start the radio broadcasts. The song they play on TV is usually the Fox Sports theme.
Re: #29
Calgary’s also an awful place for baseball because no one there cares about the sport. Calgary is first and foremost a hockey town, with football falling well back, and baseball barely registering in the sports consciousness.
Re: #19
I would think that the reason most Canadian baseball fans are Jays fans is because of the Toronto-centric broadcasters. Canadians are forced to become Jays fans because they aren’t given a choice of who to watch.
As I understand it, the only three counties the A’s can truly claim as their “home territory” are Alameda, Contra Costa, and Solano. That’s 1.8M+ people right there. The Giants argue that this should be a plenty large enough market to run a ball team, and besides, the A’s have Sacramento. The Giants will never cede the South Bay.
Over the years of the A’s have discussed moving to Sacramento. It may not be all that bad an idea. The Central Valley is growing rapidly. More and more Bay Area workers are commuting from Modesto and Stockton. If they were to, say, drop a stadium in downtown Stockton they’d be an hour from Sac-Town, 75 miles from Oakland, and the team for the 2M in the East Bay and the 2M in the Valley.
Do the Giants NEED 100% of San Jose? Probably not. As is, they split loyalties with the A’s in the Central Valley. Outside of there, they are THE baseball team of NoCal. Their “nation” runs from Fresno into southern Oregon. If the A’s and Giants agreed to split the South Bay, neither team would hurt all that much.
(FTR, I think the most southerly town in the Mariner Nation is Medford. South of that is Giants fans.)
The tide is turning as far as choice goes. Vancouver fans, of course, have enjoyed (?) cable access to local Seattle/Bellingham channels for decades. Also, last year we got about 50 M’s games on Rogers Sportsnet Pacific, which is available nationally on digital cable/satellite. Not sure how many we’re getting this year.
Note as well that the Expos used to be broadcast throughout Canada, and many of us who were hooked during the glory years of Carter/Dawson/Raines remained fans – at least, up until now.
The thing is, when we’re talking market size, we need to know how Forbes defines that. If it’s as narrow as, say, a 100-mile radius, that excludes Vancouver. And Japan.