Matsuzaka’s posting request denied

Jeff · October 27, 2005 at 3:05 pm · Filed Under Mariners 

We’d been hearing rumors about this, and from Kyodo News via JapanBall.com, here’s the confirmation: the Seibu Lions have denied Daisuke Matsuzaka’s request that the team post him. The posting system is the only way he’d be able to come to the major leagues this year.

Team representative Akira Kuroiwa said he told Matsuzaka that
the 25-year-old is a ”symbol” of the Seibu group and should
continue as an important member of the Lions next season, although
his wish to put himself in a more challenging situation is
understandable … [snip]

After the 2004 season, Seibu suggested it would give Matsuzaka a
chance to ply his trade in the majors through the posting system on
condition that he perform well enough to make his case this year.

This year, Matsuzaka was 14-13 with a 2.30 ERA, third in the
Pacific League, in 28 games. He led the league with 226 strikeouts,
15 complete games, three shutouts and 215 innings pitched.

The numbers, which came one year after Matsuzaka posted a 10-6
record with a 2.90 ERA and 127 strikeouts, apparently failed to
convince Seibu front-office officials.

There appears to be an air of finality about this, although Matsuzaka says he’s going to keep trying to persuade them. Under the current situation, he wouldn’t be eligible for free agency before 2008.

Two immediate impacts here. First, top free agent pitchers like A.J. Burnett and Kevin Millwood just got more expensive due to scarcity. Second, this is a real disappointment from a major league fan’s perspective, since one of the most enticing players won’t get the chance to ply his trade in the states this year.

Frankly, I’m happy for Japanese fans that they’re not losing a talent like Matsuzaka. I don’t want to see the Japanese leagues become a de facto feeder system. But I’m bummed that I won’t get to see the gyroball in Safeco Field next year.

Comments

38 Responses to “Matsuzaka’s posting request denied”

  1. Kelly M on October 27th, 2005 3:22 pm

    Darn

  2. Phildopip on October 27th, 2005 3:28 pm

    Man, this blows. Now we’re going to have to pursue Burnett, Millwood and Washburn. I just know Bavasi is going to push for Washburn. UGH.

  3. ChrisK on October 27th, 2005 3:32 pm

    Welcome back to spring training, Messrs Abbott, Halama, Tomko, and/or Fassero.

  4. IceX on October 27th, 2005 3:36 pm

    Way to early to throw in the towel. If Matsuzaka’s resolve is as strong as Igawa Kei’s, we should see some more news here and there.

  5. whwang on October 27th, 2005 3:41 pm

    blockquote cite=”I’m happy for Japanese fans that they’re not losing a talent like Matsuzaka.”>

    Indeed, letting Matsuzaka play in Japan is a way to lose him. He is way overloaded. The longer he plays in Japan, the more possible for an injury.

  6. Deanna on October 27th, 2005 4:14 pm

    Frankly, I’m happy for Japanese fans that they’re not losing a talent like Matsuzaka. I don’t want to see the Japanese leagues become a de facto feeder system. But I’m bummed that I won’t get to see the gyroball in Safeco Field next year.

    Oh, you’ve captured the way I feel exactly. If Matsuzaka was going to be posted this year, I’d want to see him in Seattle instead of somewhere else. But I do worry about the way NPB might go if there’s this system of them sending MLB their best stars and we send them Andy Sheets… it would be terrible for the NPB to just become another farm system for MLB, since it has such a strong history there, and the experience is so totally different.

    I really didn’t think there was going to be any reason at all for Seibu to post Matsuzaka until after 2006 in his N-1 year, so this isn’t too surprising to me.

    I think that despite being proud of the success of Japanese players over here, a lot of the team owners are really worried about losing their key talent to MLB, and I wouldn’t be surprised if something happens in the next few years to change it.

  7. jason on October 27th, 2005 4:15 pm

    15 complete games. 15!!

  8. Mike Snow on October 27th, 2005 4:28 pm

    Another year may make it easier to evaluate whether there are serious issues due to overwork. Naturally, for his sake I hope this evaluation isn’t made too easy…

  9. Jeremy on October 27th, 2005 4:29 pm

    Is someone ready to talk Jerry off a ledge now that the centerpiece of his offseason plan is shot?

  10. PositivePaul on October 27th, 2005 4:37 pm

    #9 – I thought Jerry’s centerpiece was A.J. Burnett. Not having “The Dice” as an option, though, throws a wrench in a lot of armchair GM’s plans.

    Good thing the M’s have a lot of cash. They’re going to need to spend it now to get what they need. Certainly hiring Chaves will help their existing pitchers somewhat, but they still need to decide what to do with Moyer.

  11. whwang on October 27th, 2005 4:43 pm

    I happen to find how Matsuzaka was used in high school. I don’t know how to translate the name of the game. It is supposed to be the highest level high school baseball game in Japan. What you are going to see below is not the team record, it’s Matsuzaka’s personal record.

    1998 spring
    3/28 9IP 2H 8K 2BB
    4/03 9IP 2H 13K 3BB
    4/05 9IP 5H 7K 2BB
    4/07 9IP 5H 8K 4BB
    4/08 9IP 4H 7K 2BB

    1998
    8/11 9IP 3H 9K 6BB
    8/16 9IP 5H 9K 0BB
    8/19 9IP 4H 13K 2BB
    8/20 17IP 13H 11K 6BB
    8/21 1IP 0H 1K 1BB
    8/22 9IP 0H 11K 3BB 0R

    1400 pitches in total. ERA=1.0.

    How he is used in pro-ball may not be as extreme as this. But for his sake, somebody should bring him to the US as early as possible, before his arm breaks.

  12. LB on October 27th, 2005 4:52 pm

    #4: If Matsuzaka’s resolve …: What does his resolve have to do with anything? It’s like pre-1975 baseball in the states. The man signed a contract with a version of the reserve clause in it. If he doesn’t like his situation now, all he can do to try to change it is hold out and not pitch. Holding out sounds rather un-Japanese to me.

    #11: I have mislaid my copy, but I think You Gotta Have Wa says that all Japanese high school pitchers get worked like that.

  13. Gomez on October 27th, 2005 5:02 pm

    I did not for a second expect Matsuzaka to post. With the depleted talent pool and Dice being Seibu’s franchise player, they would have been hard pressed to just put him out there, even if they got a huge haul in posting fees. Keep in mind, Orix got big money for posting Ichiro and still went under, so it’s not necessarily in a NPB team’s best interest to post their franchise player.

    I think U.S. fans don’t quite understand the context of an NPB team posting a franchise player. Imagine, say, a hypothetical scenario where the Giants can’t break even and every team in MLB is fiscally struggling. Then imagine fans of some team in a super world wide league suggesting that the Giants sell off Barry Bonds to said world wide league. Let’s say the Royals sold off Mike Sweeney four years ago and the Royals folded anyway two years later. Would you agree that the Giants pull the trigger on such a move?

  14. Evan on October 27th, 2005 5:03 pm

    LB’s right (I keep wanting to call you Lord British). The only way Matsuzaka’s getting posted now if Seibu’s circumstances change. If there’s a groundswell of public support for him to pitch in America (not likely), then Seibu might be swayed for PR reasons. If some MLB club tells Seibu what they’d offer as a posting fee (unethical) and they decide they’d rather have the $20 million than the pitcher, then he might be posted for financial reasons.

    But those are both extremely unlikely.

  15. Deanna on October 27th, 2005 5:05 pm

    11 – That’s Koshien, the big yearly highschool baseball tournament, also one of the biggest summer baseball events in Japan. I think it even gets more media coverage than the Japan Series does. Playing at Koshien and doing well pretty much almost guarantees you’ll end up in the NPB eventually, and that’s where Matsuzaka pitched the legendary 250-pitch game that everyone always talks about. (Sadaharu Oh, back when he was a pitcher in highschool, also pitched at Koshien until his hands bled, and there’s stories about how his father took a train several hundred miles to come down there, showed up in the middle of the night, and made a salve to stop the bleeding)

    12 – Yeah, pretty much. I mean, if you attend a top baseball highschool or college where pretty much *every* guy wants to play baseball, what better way to weed people out than to overwork them until 80% of them fall over, and the remaining kids are your team?

    13 – Ichiro got posted in his N-1 year, the year before he’d be a free agent and he’d be leaving AND the team wouldn’t get anything for him. Which is why I’m thinking Seibu will post Matsuzaka in 2006.

  16. Jon Helfgott on October 27th, 2005 5:45 pm

    Japanese players need to negotiate a more favorable deal with the NPB. A system that keeps players under team control for 10 years is ridiculous.

    Question: Is anything stopping Major-League teams from scouting/signing Japanese amateurs the same way we do it everywhere else? Is there some sort of agreement with the NPB whereby MLB agrees to leave Japanese amateur talent alone?

  17. Smegmalicious on October 27th, 2005 6:07 pm

    DAMNIT! Where are those rumored ‘back room deals’ when we need them???

  18. mark from Oly. wa. on October 27th, 2005 6:16 pm

    #11 that’s like something out of Ken Burn’s Baseball

    “back in 19## teams only had 2 pitchers, and one was a closer!”

  19. LB on October 27th, 2005 6:35 pm

    #14: Not Lord Anything. Just think “POUND.”

    #16: The MLB system isn’t something that was handed down by the baseball gods. It took MLB players many years, contracts, arbitration hearings, strikes and lockouts to get to the situation they have now. Read The End Of Baseball As We Knew It: The Players Union, 1960-81 by Charles Korr for the early part of the story (which doesn’t even get you up to the cancelled World Series). The notion of striking NPB ballplayers seems as un-Japanese to me as holding out, although I know nothing of Japanese labor relations in baseball.

  20. IceX on October 27th, 2005 6:51 pm

    The NPBPA, under the leadership of current-Swallows Player Manager Furuta Atsuya, went on strike last year to much effect (forced the retention of 2 leagues, addition of team to replace contracted Kintetsu team).

    Holding out isn’t very un-Japanese, really. It happens, but it just has too little leverage. Igawa held out till February last year, and I expect the same, perhaps with Ishii and Matsuzaka too.

    Frankly, I’m saddened by Seibu’s treachery.

  21. Steve on October 27th, 2005 6:59 pm

    #16: Question: Is anything stopping Major-League teams from scouting/signing Japanese amateurs the same way we do it everywhere else? Is there some sort of agreement with the NPB whereby MLB agrees to leave Japanese amateur talent alone?

    I don’t believe there is. Back in 1993, the Mariners signed Mac Suzuki as a teenager.

  22. whwang on October 27th, 2005 7:04 pm

    The lefty pitcher Igawa from Hanshin Taigers is likely to be posted. Perhaps we can try to get him.

  23. Deanna on October 27th, 2005 7:33 pm

    Igawa is not going to be posted.

    There is an agreement of some sort, though I can’t find a link beyond a discussion a while back on Michael Westbay’s site.

    Mac Suzuki was signed by the Mariners because Don Nomura got him over to the US when he was 16, before he was draft-eligible. When he went back to Japan, he was put into the draft then, and was drafted by (heh) Orix as a 28-year-old.

    The Angels talked to Koji Uehara when he was a top Japanese college prospect back in 1998, and so did the Giants, but if Uehara had wanted to pursue things with the Angels, he could not go into the NPB draft at all, so he ended up going to the Giants, where he was put on the major league roster almost immediately, as opposed to coming here and ending up in the minors for a while.

    Also, um, how is it treachery to not post a guy when they never said they would in the first place?

  24. Deanna on October 27th, 2005 7:34 pm

    er, and by the Giants, I mean Yomiuri. Namespace collision. 🙂

  25. Jeff on October 27th, 2005 7:51 pm

    Deanna’s right, Igawa’s not going to be posted. He asked to be last year, and they flat turned him down. He’s not eligible for free agency until 2007.

    I have a Kei Igawa post ready to go in the event that he’s allowed to come to the major leagues, but I doubt it’ll see the light of day.

  26. Bela Txadux on October 27th, 2005 8:06 pm

    Seibu’s croacked when the Dice walks, so this isn’t a surprise. But the most interesting potential acquisition in the offseason pool just got hung up on a snag. W00000t-not.

  27. mln on October 27th, 2005 8:10 pm

    This news about Matsuzaka is all the more reason for the Mariners to sign Jamie Moyer and Ryan Franklin to guaranteed multiyear contracts. Bavasi get on it. ASAP! 😉

  28. Gomez on October 27th, 2005 9:14 pm

    27. A multiyear contract for Franklin is a GREAT idea. The concession stand’s been short on cashiers for a while, and having a cashier with rubber hands would improve customer service efficiency… though his tendency to mouth off could cause trouble at the counter.

    Which, I suppose, is what the kitchen’s for.

  29. Bela Txadux on October 28th, 2005 3:53 am

    Glendon Rusch = the next Jamie Moyer.

  30. ray on October 28th, 2005 6:44 am

    Isn’t Seibu part owned by Walmart. This would make total sense, keep you best products at a low cost (check out his salary). Eventually though he’ll be replaced by a Chinese import.

    And BTW, this really sucks.

  31. Red Ed on October 28th, 2005 9:23 am

    I’m not sure how likely the NPB is to become a feeder system for MLB. It seems like the posting system does encourage Japanese teams to post players shortly before they become free agents (so as to get at least some compensation for their dudes), but that depends on the players wanting to come to the U.S., right?

    My knowledge of the NPB and the Japanese relationship to baseball is admittedly lacking, but just from the discussions here, it sounds like Japanese players are often paid more in Japan than in the US–at least, more than the first 2-4 years of their ML contracts, and only the true stars (Ichiro, the good Matsui) end up making more.

    Then on the pride/personal goals end, I’d imagine it’s very hard to gauge the long-term impact the desire to “prove” oneself at the top level of baseball will have on Japanese players, especially weighed against possible feelings of national pride, loyalty to specific teams, cities, and fans, etc. Once we’ve seen a few more Japanese stars succeed in the MLB, along with some mid-level guys, is the general desire to play in the majors going to increase or decrease? I’d imagine at least the novelty would decrease; I could also see NPB players look at guys they think they’re as good as (well.. probably more guys like Shinjo and Taguchi than Ichiro and Matsui) and say, “Eh, I could have done that.”

    Of course, that might also bring some to think “Hey, I could do that”–and MLB is still The Show, the One League to Rule Them All. And, perhaps if too much talent heads to the States, the top-tier players will be encouraged to think they too need to head over here for a real challenge.

    I’ll cut myself off before I get any windier, but basically I think the relationship between Japanese players and the majors is going to be one of those things you may be able to analyze once it’s locked in to certain tendencies, but will be extremely difficult to predict in the meantime. (And not that anyone’s said otherwise–just doing some thinking here.)

    Also, it stinks Matsuzaka wasn’t posted.

  32. IceX on October 28th, 2005 11:28 am

    Of course, it’s not really treachery.

    But I’m sick of seeing the NPB teams screw around, sending false premises to both fans and their players about “possibly” allowing them to be posted, only to give them the one-finger salute.

    Again, it’s early to throw in the towel. There’s a lot of time between now and when contracts for 2006 are tendered, and there’s going to be a lot more noise that Seibu, Yakult and Hanshin will have to deal with.

  33. John Brooks on October 28th, 2005 3:12 pm

    “Frankly, I’m happy for Japanese fans that they’re not losing a talent like Matsuzaka. I don’t want to see the Japanese leagues become a de facto feeder system.”

    I’m happy too that Matsuzaka too get posted. As I’m as you noticed here a big NPB fan here. I don’t want to see the NPB become a major league feeder. I want to see it stay a second major league. Also, like Bobby Valentine proposed I want to see a true World Series between the NPB Champion and the World Series champion instead of Bud Selig and the MLBPA’s rigged World Baseball Classic.

    “But I’m bummed that I won’t get to see the gyroball in Safeco Field next year.”

    Next years WBC(World Baseball Classic)is your answer to seeing Matsuzaka. While I know this is not what you want to see, we will get to see Matsuzaka in March of 06.

    “The longer he plays in Japan, the more possible for an injury.”

    There’s a big difference in training between the NPB and major leagues. Also, remember Matsuzaka pitched a 260 pitch, 16 inning game in high school.

    “and I wouldn’t be surprised if something happens in the next few years to change it.”

    Tsuneo Watanabe will probably be the one to lead the charge if there was one. Though I seriously doubt it, right now the Baystars’ ownership is question as the Baystars parent company TBS is owned by Rakuten now, which is currently the NPB owners’ major issue at the October owner meetings. NPB rules, like MLB rules forbid one company from being invovled in the day-to-day operations of more than one team, but don’t mention the rules of parent company ownership.

    Also, remember following last year’s merger of Orix-Kintestu the NPB can’t afford Nabestune(as Tsuneo Watanabe is called) to cause another crisis. So as usual he will sit in the background and suffer from his usual foot-and-mouth disease. Like his recent comments about Livedoor Inc. President Takefumi Horie who has been interested in trying to buy the Carp, who tried to buy the Buffaloes to prevent the merger between Orix-Kintestu but was refused, and was the loser in the new exapansion bid in which Rakuten won.

    “Is someone ready to talk Jerry off a ledge now that the centerpiece of his offseason plan is shot?”

    Oh come on, don’t be so harsh on Jerry. You could be the Orioles(my favorite MLB team and have Peter Angelos). Every MLB team in the majors would like to have Daisuke Matsuzaka, they be crazy to say otherwise. Though the point was he wasn’t getting posted regardless the circumstances, he’s the face of the Seibu Lions’ organzation. I sure know I wish the O’s had a Daisuke Matsuzaka.

    “Keep in mind, Orix got big money for posting Ichiro and still went under, so it’s not necessarily in a NPB team’s best interest to post their franchise player.”

    Which is why again it’s not in a NPB team’s best interest to post their player to the majors. That amount of money is usually spent on foreign players a lot of the time, let me ask you what would you rather have a home-grown Japanese all-star or a unknown-AAA player? Me, I rather have the homegrown Japanese all-star player. While, the foreign players do have success in Japan a lot, I rather have the homegrown player every time.

    “I think U.S. fans don’t quite understand the context of an NPB team posting a franchise player.”

    Well put, most people don’t simply understand the context of the posting system. They let their feelings get carried away, without thinking about the NPB for a minute. Remember fans in Japan follow NPB, while they might follow MLB, NPB is the major league there. Most MLB fans expect the NPB to their minor league feeder or version of the Kansas City A’s(the New York Yankees AAA basically). Also, a lot of people, I’m not saying anyone here, but think of the NPB as a inferior league to MLB and refuse to accept other leagues around the world.

    “If some MLB club tells Seibu what they’d offer as a posting fee (unethical) and they decide they’d rather have the $20 million than the pitcher, then he might be posted for financial reasons.”

    What you’re missing is that Matsuzaka is the face of the Seibu Lions organzation. He’s more valuable than $20 million US Dollars. Lets put in perspective for a minute, Seibu is left without a ace pitcher and their star player. He’s isn’t getting posted anytime soon because of the big hole he would leave, he probably isn’t ever getting posted.

    “Japanese players need to negotiate a more favorable deal with the NPB. A system that keeps players under team control for 10 years is ridiculous.”

    I agree a system that keeps players under a reserve clause for 10 years is indeed ridiculous. Though it’s there to prevent the NPB from becoming a MLB feeder.

    “Is anything stopping Major-League teams from scouting/signing Japanese amateurs the same way we do it everywhere else? Is there some sort of agreement with the NPB whereby MLB agrees to leave Japanese amateur talent alone?”

    No, Japanese ameteurs are free to sign with any team they wish, MLB or NPB. The NPB has 2 drafts now, a High School Draft and a College/Industrial League draft.

    “It took MLB players many years, contracts, arbitration hearings, strikes and lockouts to get to the situation they have now.”

    Japan and the United States are way different. Strikes aren’t accepted in Japan as acceptable attitude, I mean me myself don’t accept them as acceptable attitude.

    “The NPBPA, under the leadership of current-Swallows Player Manager Furuta Atsuya, went on strike last year to much effect (forced the retention of 2 leagues, addition of team to replace contracted Kintetsu team).”

    The 2 day strike, the 1st strike in NPB league history has led to increased awareness to the JBPBA(Japan Baseball Players Baseball Association). Though now Atsuya Furata has stepped down as President as he’s became player-manager of the Yakult Swallows. Furata was the face of the union and was what the MLBPA should be like. Also, the strike led to the addition of the Rakuten Eagles. Though there is Yomiuri Shimbun Chairman Tsuneo Watanabe to counter the JBPBA, who is very powerful in Japanese politics and in Japan alone that he got former Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone elected by himself.

    “The lefty pitcher Igawa from Hanshin Taigers is likely to be posted. Perhaps we can try to get him.”

    The Hanshin Tigers have said Igawa will not be posted. The only that they will discuss with Igawa is a new 1yr contract.

    “Isn’t Seibu part owned by Walmart.”

    Seibu is owned by the Kokudo Corpration. The Kokudo Corpration has been trying to sell the Seibu Lions since December 04 now, but have been rebuffed by their demand to keep the Lions in Tokorozawa.

    “I’m not sure how likely the NPB is to become a feeder system for MLB. It seems like the posting system does encourage Japanese teams to post players shortly before they become free agents (so as to get at least some compensation for their dudes), but that depends on the players wanting to come to the U.S., right?”

    So you’re telling me that the money was worth it for Ichiro Suzuki, I’m sorry I’m going to have disagree. No amount of money will replace these players who are all-stars, when this money is usually spent on foreign players.

    “But I’m sick of seeing the NPB teams screw around, sending false premises to both fans and their players about “possibly” allowing them to be posted, only to give them the one-finger salute.”

    It’s in the best interest for NPB teams to field a winning team, that what NPB fans want to see. That what many MLB fans don’t get, most NPB fans don’t care one way or another about the majors except for the Japanese players playing there, just take a look in the major Japanese newspapers to see.

  34. ray on October 28th, 2005 3:57 pm

    Sorry, I think the argument that NBP teams are worried about their teams and leagues suffering because of their “stars” leaving does not wholly answer why the NPB is suffering. Long before any “exodus” teams have been suffering. For many years now attendance and ratings have been declining. I think the emergence of soccer is one reason, the lack of home grown influence (parents having time to play), video games, genreal disinterest, etc. are more to blame. Of course, it doesn’t help that the “stars” do leave but even if they didn’t leave the decline would still not stop. There have been discussions here in Japan about trying to make the game more fan friendly: closer-to-the-play seat, promotions, make the game more exciting, etc. So, if this decline continues the NBP may become of a farm system itself anyway, where it is just guys playing for low salaries and high hopes of making it big (MLB).

  35. John Brooks on October 28th, 2005 8:59 pm

    “For many years now attendence and ratings have been declining”

    That’s where a lot of people are wrong at. The NPB’s overall attendence is overall on the rise. The myth that NPB’s attendence is in decline mode is a large myth. Also the fact that NPB ratings are in decline are a large myth except for the Yomiuri Giants(thanks to Tsuneo Watanabe).

  36. ray on October 29th, 2005 10:27 pm

    #35, then the news media the owners have been flat out lying. And it sure doesn’t seem so (less attendance) because when I flip through the channels and happen to see a game half stadiums are empty. Do get me wrong, if it’s true then that’s great for NPB but of course then it makes all arguments about “NPB becoming less than it is because the stars are leaving” not really arguments.

  37. Yakut on October 30th, 2005 6:03 pm

    MLB would like nothing better to turn Japanese baseball into a glorified farm system for USA baseball. The last thing MLB wants is any kind of rival to compete against. Hell, Bobby Valentine has spoken out against this “feeder system” model that the USA wants.

    The MLB even treated the NPB like a junior partner in how to split the revenue for the so-called “World Cup” tournament it is pushing. This was a reason why the NPB was first reluctant to support this glorified MLB (er… sorry World Baseball Classic) PR event.

    And the last thing the NPB needs is WalMart buying Seibu. That would be just another case of an American corporation colonizing the world. Next up, McDonald’s buys the Yomiuri Giants and changes their name to the Yomiuri Happy Meals.

  38. Jon Monteforte on October 31st, 2005 4:49 pm

    Today a Japanese paper reports that Matsuzaka has given up in his efforts to be posted this offseason (thought he said he WOULD NOT STOP TRYING) and instead will concentrate on staying healthy until he can become a FA after the ’08 season. I’m so disappointed because I really wanted to see this guy pitch here in the states where the world’s best players are. Guys like El Duque, Contreras and Matsuzaka are known throughout the world and belong in the Major Leagues!