Mariners to season ticket holders: Bavasi, Hargrove to return
With commentary. Short version: Lincoln/Armstrong says “Bill Bavasi will continue to lead our baseball operations and Mike Hargrove will continue to manage the team.”
The full letter, with extra snarky comments, after the break.
With the 2006 baseball season about to conclude, the Seattle Mariners would like to thank you for your support and share our thoughts as we look ahead to 2007.
It would have been great if they’d just left this blank, to mirror the ownership’s general cluelessness.
Or put “duh” and then signed off. I would have accepted that, too.
Although this was our third consecutive losing season, there were a number of bright spots and several areas of improvement on the team this year, which are discussed in more detail below. We are well aware that your patience is not infinite. Neither is ours. Like you, we wish the rebuilding process was much quicker and that the Mariners would be in the playoffs next week. We remain determined to get things turned around as quickly as we possibly can, and in doing so, we ask for your continued patience.
We’re experiencing technical difficulties. “Full House” will return in a moment.
While our goal remains the same – to bring a World Championship to Seattle – we recognize that you will judge us by the results. We know that there is still a great deal of work to do to get us to our goal and that you, like us, are anxious to see some concrete progress. Well, we do think we have made progress!
Super!
After reviewing all aspects of our organization and looking ahead, we believe that:
• The Mariners are much better at both the Major League and minor league levels than we were in 2004, when the rebuilding process began. The talent level is better and deeper and gives us the flexibility to make trades that will help us.
Okay, sure.
• More pieces of the puzzle are in place today than a year ago. The emergence of shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt, second baseman Jose Lopez, catcher Kenji Johjima and outfielder Chris Snelling have solidified several key positions for us. Along with veterans Raul Ibañez, Ichiro Suzuki, Richie Sexson and Adrian Beltre, there is a good foundation in place to build upon.
Uhhhh… so is the implication here that Sexson/Beltre/Ichiro are all going to be back? Because that’s going to do a lot to keep the team from improving next year.
• Our bullpen, with J.J. Putz, Rafael Soriano, Julio Mateo, Mark Lowe, George Sherrill, Jake Woods and several other young arms, is a strength. It allows us to build the pitching staff from back to front, and our main off-season focus will be on upgrading the starting rotation. Felix Hernandez and Jarrod Washburn are the only current starters under contract beyond this season.
“Back to front”? What the heck does that mean? Is that the roster construction version of “shortening the game”?
• During the second half of the season, the Mariners became the second youngest team in Major League Baseball (only the Florida Marlins were younger), including the youngest pitching staff. This transition from a veteran team was by design and it bodes well for the future. The first step for young players is to establish themselves as quality Major Leaguers. The next step is for them to grow together as a “team,” a winning team that evolves into a legitimate contender.
Oooooooooh boy, the grow-together-as-a-team. Instead of sending players to winter ball, they’re going to send them to winter camp, where they’ll roast marshmellows and tell ghost stories. Wheee!
Also: the move to youth generally, sure. But they signed Carl Everett last off-season and gave Ibanez a ridiculous extension. Was it a weighted youth movement?
• Our farm system has become much more productive. Prior to the roster expansion on September 1, 19 of the 25 players on our roster were either products of our farm system or originally signed by the Mariners (Ichiro, Kenji, Sherrill).
That’s a weird metric to use, but oookay.
• The Mariners have shown steady improvement over the past three seasons, with win totals increasing from 63 to 69 to 76 (with three games to play this weekend), including a 42-36 mark at Safeco in front of the home crowds.
That’s not a particularly hard mark to improve on. They’re kind of bragging about how awful the 2004 retooling was (and they didn’t go into that as a rebuilding year, either).
• We have more work to do. And we believe that we have the right people in place to get the job done. Bill Bavasi will continue to lead our baseball operations and Mike Hargrove will continue to manage the team. We believe that they are the right people to lead us to the next level. We have great confidence in their abilities. In our view, continuity of leadership is extremely important at this point in time.
(jaw agape)
If the ownership of the team wants us to know that they have great confidence in Hargrove, doesn’t that tell us that their confidence is worthless? That they really, truly are unable to judge managerial talent? Or, at the very least, that they’re lying to us?
As Ralph Malph commented: If Mike Hargrove is uniquely qualified to lead a young team, then I’m uniquely qualified to perform neurosurgery on wombats.
And if the other message is that continuity of leadership is more important than competence, what are we to take from that?
Under Bill’s watch, we have seen a dramatic improvement in our scouting and player development departments, which has already resulted in several top prospects climbing quickly up the minor league ladder and playing key roles for us this year.
Sure, okay.
Mike is uniquely equipped to lead a young team. His experience in developing and dealing with young players is one of the reasons we hired him in the first place. And we have watched as Mike has kept all his players – veterans and young players alike – focused and playing hard every day of the season. We bounced back from the tough road trip in August by winning series from the Yankees, Red Sox, Angels and Tigers, and continued to play well in September.
I can’t even believe that.
Mike is uniquely equipped to lead a young team.
This is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard from M’s ownership. Hargrove has demonstrated, over and over again, that he prefers experience to talent, age to youth, is a poor judge of talent, a poor in-game manager. What are those unique qualifications, exactly?
I cannot believe that Hargrove has the endorsement of ownership, much less that he’s returning next year. Whether or not the team played well in selected series late in the season, whether or not they had a winning record at home, Hargrove went through stretches this year where he could not do right, running the team out of games, mismanaging the bullpen. The Twins may well owe their playoff berth to the M’s, who laid down for them mid-season, after which the Twins pulled themselves together and went on a long run of success. The A’s ran circles around the M’s. They were trounced by divisional opponents.
Hargrove is not a good manager. He’s not a good manager of young teams in particular, but he’s not a good manager in general.
This is appalling.
This is where things stand as we prepare for a busy off-season. Our ownership group will continue to provide the necessary financial resources for the club’s success. Their goal is to get the Mariners back to the playoffs and bring a World Series to our fans in Seattle and throughout the Pacific Northwest.
Uh huh. Soooo… payroll cuts?
Along with you, nearly 2.5 million fans enjoyed watching Major League Baseball at Safeco Field this past season. The fan support has been remarkable. In addition to our commitment to the team itself, we are also committed to making Safeco Field a special place where you, your family and guests can enjoy a first-class entertainment experience in a safe, clean and family-friendly environment.
That’s the M’s, folks: they’re the Family Fun Center with the Moose in a uniform. Yayyyy!
Once again, we appreciate and thank you for your support of Mariners Baseball.
I wish I could return the thought.
Sincerely,
Howard Lincoln
Chief Executive Officer Chuck Armstrong
Chief Operating Officer
Snarkily,
Derek
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196 Responses to “Mariners to season ticket holders: Bavasi, Hargrove to return”
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If Hargrove’s pet rock ran the team instead of Grover himself, we’d be at .500. Basically, he’s the reason we’re the laughingstock of the AL West, and the fact he’s staying -is- worth getting worked up about.
I don’t care about the PR aspects of the letter. That is, you’re right, to be expected, and entirely meaningless.
It’s the decision making. It has, over the last few years, ranged from middling to poor to abysmal. There have been very few things that have been “smart” moves.
This is just one more bad decision to add to the heap; how many do we have to endure before we can say enough is enough?
Plz Ichrio.. demand a trade….
But Jeff, isn’t this just part and parcel of being a baseball fan? Are the Mariners’ bad decisions really that much more frequent and blatant than those committed by other teams?
The Mariners aren’t very good this year, but in my baseball ignorance (which you’re more than free to call me out on, by the way) this is a direct result of having a competitive team for several years, trying to stay competitive too long, and finally doing the right thing by rebuilding with youth.
This is pretty generally the pattern with any sort of competitive team in any sport, right? Good team gets old and becomes bad. Bad team, if run correctly, rebuilds and becomes good once more. Rinse. Repeat.
The Mariners certainly aren’t the sharpest team in MLB and have had their share of missteps, but overall they appear to be on the right path, right? At least as much so as most teams are at this point in rebuilding after a collapse, right?
I understand the frustration with the bad decisions, but there’s a lot more hope with this team than with the Mariners of two years ago – or even the same team earlier this year.
My real confusion is with people willing to give up being a fan at all at this point because of this. It would be a stupid decision, but every team makes them.
The overreacting in this thread is ridiculous.
I’m signing off for the evening, but I just want to be crystal-clear on what I’m saying and not saying.
I’m not saying that I want Hargrove back as a manager.
I’m not saying that people don’t have the right to be upset because they don’t want Hargrove back as a manager.
I am saying that getting too obsessed about the wording of a fluff PR letter that praises Hargrove’s abilities, beyond enjoying the comedic irony, is a waste of time.
I am saying that while this makes it appear that Hargrove will be back, I think it would be a mistake to take it as the definitive word on the subject.
I am saying that being a fan of a team means being a fan through thick and thin. Given that things seem to slowly be getting, um, thicker, even if Hargrove does return, I’m shocked that this would be grounds for breaking off fandom. (not directed at you, Jeff, I think I get where you’re coming from)
On a purely talent level? There’s some reasons to be optimistic (Yuniesky Betancourt, King Felix, Jose Lopez); some reasons to be reasonably satisfied (Adrian Beltre, Richie Sexson); and some horrible train wrecks considering contract status and the way they’re being used (Jarrod Washburn, Julio Mateo, Willie Bloomquist, Willie Bloomquist, Willie Bloomquist).
This organization has CONSISTENTLY shown that they are unable to evaluate the talent they have and understand how to make the best use of it.
Two examples of this:
-I hate to pick on Willie Bloomquist so much. I’m sure he’s a great guy, and he does have some skills (not falling down on the basepaths, chiefly) that make him valuable if used properly. But he has had 249 at-bats this season according to espn.com. TWO HUNDRED FORTY NINE. There have not been any significant injuries that have necessitated this; there have almost always been better options available every time that his name was written on the lineup card.
-Jeremy Reed didn’t turn out to be the player we were all hoping he was going to be, and it’s my opinion that the organization (likely guided by Hargrove’s dislike for young players, at least in part) gave up on him much too quickly. Not only now is he not a viable option in the organization’s eyes as anything but a fourth outfielder, he also has basically no trade value. And this is a player that was the centerpiece of the Freddy Garcia trade (now I always thought that Freddy was overrated, but my point still remains the same).
And, to continue point #2 and link it to point #1, what did the organization do when Reed fell out of favor? They a) plugged Willie in far too much in that spot and b) brought Adam Jones up far before he was ready AND benched him for “poor performance” when he’d barely had time to adjust to major league play, likely setting back his progress as a prospect significantly.
I don’t follow other teams that much, but others who frequent this site do; and it seems like the Mariners organization is, yes, one of the worst in baseball at making intelligent baseball decisions. Keeping Hargrove for 2007 only solidifies that reputation.
In order for me to care about the Mariners next year, they are going to have to /wow/ me this offseason. And this is not a good start.
What a downer. Kinda like the feeling I got when Fox News announced that Bush had “won” Florida on election nite. It cannot be. This is someone’s sick idea of a joke. . . .
#154 You speak of building a winning Team as if it were a grove of Walnut trees wherein the farmer has 30 years to evolve a winning formula.
I think folks here realize that the window of opportunity for producing a MLB championship with a collection of professional athletes is very narrow. Top performance for any given player can be a year or two and getting multiple peak performances to align is crucial. Under these circumstances, you can’t afford to fritter away an opportunity that may not come again for decades.
It is precisely because people see missed opportunities, and realize that they don’t come along every year, that they are disappointed.
You can always “restart” a video game. Most of us see Baseball as much more than that.
uh… hmmm… not having had the heart to write anything at all for half the season was already a bad sign… then comes the FULLY EXPECTED NEWS that Hargrove and Bavasi will be back. C’mon… for those who don’t get it, Howard doesn’t give a double scoop of sheiss about fan hopes and dreams. All our corporate owners expect is a quiescent and subservient fan response to whatever they decide. Unfortunately, the corporate ethic they’ve got, is less about bushido, and more about bullshit. I’ve quite being disappointed a long time ago. Now, it’s just insult to injury.
I really wish that letter was just a fishing expedition, to see what the ticket sales response will be to such a thing. But from past experience… the timing of this announcement, means they’re betting once again on short memories and the absolutely incredible good fortune they have with such a gullible fan base. Sorry, but while U.S.S. Mariner is a place to come (thank god) and not feel completely insane… the real world filling Safeco field is still at least 25,000 strong…
eesh…. let’s talk about the off season, eh? LOL
#149: I did say “nearly a decade†not “a decadeâ€, LB. Was that stretch from 1995-2003, in which the Mariners won an average of 90 games per year and became the toast of Seattle, really that awful?
Ooh! I know this game: How to Lie With Statistics! How does that stretch look without The Magical 2001 Season? Substitute a 95 win season for 2001 and you get “an average of 87 wins.” Not so impressive.
In the 9 year stretch you cite (carefully dodging the 99 loss season), there were 4 seasons under 90 wins, and three of those were losing seasons. Suppose we prorate the 1995 team’s wins out to a full 162 game season: a .545 record would have given the M’s … 88 wins. Still short of 90.
And if you do actually include the 99-loss 2004 season to round out the whole decade, the figures are even more dismal.
“That awful?” Well, I’m sure there are worse things than 4 of 10 losing seasons. Talk to a Royals fan, or a Rays fan. There’s always someone who’s got it worse than you. (Unless you’re a Royals fan. Or a Rays fan.)
But when a season ticket holder like me looks at the cancelled checks and sees how much I’ve spent on this pastime over the years, it’s pretty awful, yeah.
There’s really nothing like a monopoly business. Nothing like it in the world.
Plz Ichrio.. demand a trade….
Nah, just play out the contract and walk away. That’ll send a message. If they trade you at the deadline, so be it. But I don’t think ownership will let them.
Buy an ad in the Seattle Times thanking the fans for seven years and don’t look back.
#156: I am saying that being a fan of a team means being a fan through thick and thin.
Oh really? Suppose you were a Red Sox fan in 1945 when they gave Jackie Robinson a sham tryout, and a voice came from out of nowhere: “Get those [N-word]s off the field!” And then suppose it took them until 1959 to actually put a black player on the field, the last team in baseball. You still a Red Sox fan after that?
Great stuff, Derek.
Let’s assemble teams to dismantle Safeco with crowbars or something.
Maybe we can put the roof on Qwest Field for more noise. Then we can sell the seats, foul poles, screens and the mound to Minnesota for their new stadium.
At least there is this in the PI this morning.
Ichiro! will stay in CF
#156: I am saying that being a fan of a team means being a fan through thick and thin.
Oh really? Suppose you were a Red Sox fan in 1945 when they gave Jackie Robinson a sham tryout, and a voice came from out of nowhere: “Get those [N-word]s off the field!†And then suppose it took them until 1959 to actually put a black player on the field, the last team in baseball. You still a Red Sox fan after that?
Come on. You’re not seriously conflating that situation with the possible return of a crappy manager?
One is just a bumbling personnel move; the other is a stance on an important social issue that defines who the team is as an organization – and in this case, evil.
If you think of your fandom as a marriage, and the Mariners as your spouse, your comparison is the equivalent of comparing a really nasty argument (Hargrove potentially returning) with your wife getting a crack habit, selling your children on the black market, and shooting you twice in the chest with a revolver.
One is grounds for divorce; the other is not.
LB said:
September 29th, 2006 at 12:53 am
#149: I did say “nearly a decade†not “a decadeâ€, LB. Was that stretch from 1995-2003, in which the Mariners won an average of 90 games per year and became the toast of Seattle, really that awful?
Ooh! I know this game: How to Lie With Statistics! How does that stretch look without The Magical 2001 Season? Substitute a 95 win season for 2001 and you get “an average of 87 wins.†Not so impressive.
How is that lying with statistics? And is it really news that dropping the highest number of a range out of the average will lower the average? But what would be the point of that?
What is your argument proving? That if you remove 21 wins from the Mariners’ record, that their record is worse? That the 2001 season didn’t happen and wasn’t evidence of good baseball?
Let me play your game and throw out the two losing seasons. Guess what? Their average wins just rose susbstantially!
In the 9 year stretch you cite (carefully dodging the 99 loss season),
That’s the whole point of a range, isn’t it? To point out a trend over a finite amount of time? The 99-loss season was the first season of a new, losing trend – a trend we’re still in.
there were 4 seasons under 90 wins, and three of those were losing seasons. Suppose we prorate the 1995 team’s wins out to a full 162 game season: a .545 record would have given the M’s … 88 wins. Still short of 90.
Um, okay. What’s your point? I wasn’t claiming the Mariners were the best team in baseball. Go back to what I actually said. I said that we got to enjoy “nearly a decade of quality baseball.” Not World Series baseball, not best-team-in-baseball baseball, just quality baseball, with lots of good play and won games. It just seems a curious base of experience with which to decide to throw yourself off a cliff of depression after three genuinely bad years – genuinely bad years that were almost inevitable given the aging of the players on those winning teams.
You can feel free to nitpick this, but I really feel that you’re trying to refute something I didn’t say.
And if you do actually include the 99-loss 2004 season to round out the whole decade, the figures are even more dismal.
But why? I never said it was a full 10 years. We could extend the range back into the early 1990s, too, but that would be equally irrelevant.
“That awful?†Well, I’m sure there are worse things than 4 of 10 losing seasons. Talk to a Royals fan, or a Rays fan. There’s always someone who’s got it worse than you. (Unless you’re a Royals fan. Or a Rays fan.)
But when a season ticket holder like me looks at the cancelled checks and sees how much I’ve spent on this pastime over the years, it’s pretty awful, yeah.
See, now that’s fair. So if you’re fed up, don’t renew your season tickets. It was your choice to buy them, it’s your choice to not renew them. I just think that if Hargrove (potentially) returning is enough to make people give up being a fan of the Mariners entirely, then that doesn’t say much about their interest in being a fan of a baseball team. No team is perfect, or even close to perfect, and if that’s the standard the you’ll be disappointed 9 times out of 10.
Coach said:
September 28th, 2006 at 11:14 pm
#154 You speak of building a winning Team as if it were a grove of Walnut trees wherein the farmer has 30 years to evolve a winning formula.
Not 30 years, certainly, but I do think there is an element of building and patience involved. Wouldn’t you agree?
I think folks here realize that the window of opportunity for producing a MLB championship with a collection of professional athletes is very narrow. Top performance for any given player can be a year or two and getting multiple peak performances to align is crucial. Under these circumstances, you can’t afford to fritter away an opportunity that may not come again for decades.
Sure. This is why it’s so hard to win a championship – the competition is so difficult that everything has to come together. I agree that bringing back Hargrove would be a step back from that. I agree that it would be disappointing.
I don’t think that Hargrove will still be here when this team is otherwise ready to contend for a World Series.
It is precisely because people see missed opportunities, and realize that they don’t come along every year, that they are disappointed.
Time to restate:
I’m not saying that I want Hargrove back as a manager.
I’m not saying that people don’t have the right to be upset because they don’t want Hargrove back as a manager.
I am saying that getting too obsessed about the wording of a fluff PR letter that praises Hargrove’s abilities, beyond enjoying the comedic irony, is a waste of time.
I am saying that while this makes it appear that Hargrove will be back, I think it would be a mistake to take it as the definitive word on the subject.
I am saying that being a fan of a team means being a fan through thick and thin. Given that things seem to slowly be getting, um, thicker, even if Hargrove does return, I’m shocked that this would be grounds for breaking off fandom.
You can always “restart†a video game. Most of us see Baseball as much more than that.
Um, okay. Me too. I was referring to the macro view of the cycle of how teams flourish and inevitably decline.
dang it. I hate it when Kelley’s whining mirrors our own 🙂
dang it. I hate it when Kelley’s whining mirrors our own
You know, it’s funny – after Dave annihilated Kelley’s last column, this one is much more sensible.
🙂
Sent this to the Ms, for what its worth:
I have been a Mariners fan since I moved to the Pacific Northwest in 1989. I remember attending games at the Kingdome well before 1995, well before the current ownership group took over. I’ve seen some pretty bad Mariner teams as well as some pretty good ones, but nothing trumps the insulting letter printed in the press yesterday.
I am just writing to tell you that the statement that Mike Hargrove is “uniquely equipped” to lead a young team is patently laughable. He has an awful record with this team, no concept of in-game management, and has demonstrated time and again that he prefers experience to talent, witness his absolute refusal to pull the plug on Carl Everett, a player everyone in Major League Baseball knew was done two years ago. I watched Everett with the White Sox while living on the South Side a couple years ago and he couldn’t hit lefties to save his life. Too bad Mike didn’t get that memo.
As far as I’m concerned, Hargrove is a joke and so is upper management for even trying to suggest otherwise. This team has been trounced by their divisional opponents the last few seasons and nothing this management group has done exudes the slightest notion that they have any idea how to fix the current downward spiral, nor do they seem to care as long as they can draw a few thousand suckers each game to cheer on Willie Bloomquist and the Moose.
I assure you that as long as Mike Hargrove is manager of this team, as long as Howard Lincoln and company continue to insult the intelligence of Seattle baseball fans by fielding a clearly inferior product managed by a dunderheaded moron, and having the gall to say things are just fine — I will NEVER spend a single dime buying tickets to this club or any products on Mariner broadcasts. Your organization’s incompetence has just lost you this fan. Enough is enough. I can’t subsidize this idiocy any longer. Bye.
In the PI WFB’s play is cited as a good thing to have come out of this year.
I have thought for a very long time that Howard Lincoln needed to go back to private business or retire. But then again, he has every senior elitist executive’s dream job where no one questions his decisions and he has long shown that he certainly doesn’t have to stoop listening to the fans. Well, with the exception of maybe the ones who actually CARE whether the blue boat beats the red boat. When he ordered Lou Pinella out of his office that fateful day during Lou’s last season, I knew that Mr. Lincoln’s priorities were skewed. He has always been more concerned with whether there is fresh sushi in the stands and more mindless distractions of the video kind on the Jumbotron than he is with providing a genuine product on the field. What this organization needs but will never have as long as Howard Lincoln is at the helm is Baseball PASSION. Winning is everything. Losing sucks. Continually losing is the fault of upper management. Not Bill Bavasi’s or Mike Hargrove’s and certainly not the two bench coaches who were fired. We all watched Hargrove get outmanaged when he clearly had the superior team on paper at Cleveland, we can only hope he will be gone by the time the current crop of Mariners come into their own. We’re still 3 years away from that. This organization is a mess.
Man, some of you “fans” jumping the Mariners’ ship never would have made it during the team’s true dark ages, 1977-1990. That’s right–14 years of nothing but losing records. Then expectations rise with a few playoff appearances and an expensive ballpark and payroll. Now a mere three straight losing seasons and people are going ballistic over the inevitable season ticket retention letter. This drought is nothing. Steel yourselves.
Meh. All the sideshow stuff is fine as a CUSHION when a team isn’t winning (most teams will go through a cycle). It shouldn’t be a REPLACEMENT for winning.
On the other hand, I think the ownership group wants to win–any CEO has that testosterone-fueled drive to beat the opposition. It’s just that these folks have no idea how to do it, and they have no idea that they have no idea….
I’ve decided that I’m going to spend my fretting time on worrying about Buck O’Neill instead.
Random thought of the day as we look forward to 2007….Ken Griffey Jr. returns to Safeco next year! Unless some drastic changes occur in the offseason to improve the Mariners, this will probably be the only series I will attend. I will cheer loud and long each time the Kid comes to the plate and hope he strokes yet another line drive home run to right center field….maybe two.
Thiel weighs in on the subject
In the PI WFB’s play is cited as a good thing to have come out of this year.
Unless it’s an article I missed, it wasn’t a P-I writer who cited WFB’s play; it was Grover who said one of the advantages of moving Ichiro to center was that “we’ve given Willie, Bohn and especially Chris Snelling a chance to play at this level.”
More importantly, everyone should say a prayer or think a good thought for Buck O’Neill. He’s in my Hall of Fame.
23 – Amen.
Take all this angst and remember it next time you’re tempted to buy a ticket. If you have season tickets, do not renew.
Howie and Chuck consistently run one of baseball’s most profitable franchises. They are very good at consistently wringing operating profits out of an MLB franchise. They are in the midst of proving that a francishise can continue to earn strong profits while in the midst of a multi-year rebuilding program. They have a formula and they’re not lying to anyone about it:
It is no accident that “winning” and “baseball” don’t appear. Howie and Chuck are proving that neither is necessary to pull cash out of a franchise’s market year after year.
The only act Howie and Chuck understand is the tickets we don’t buy. Don’t buy tickets. Help your family and friends visit the Tacoma Rainiers and the Everett Aquasox. Take away Howie and Chuck’s revenue and force them to suffer real operating losses. It is the only way to change Howie and Chuck’s formula.
It is no accident that “winning†and “baseball†don’t appear.
well, actually ‘winning’ does:
“The first step for young players is to establish themselves as quality Major Leaguers. The next step is for them to grow together as a “team,” a winning team that evolves into a legitimate contender.”
and from Hickey:
“Attendance is critical,” Lincoln said. “We can’t continue to see declines. The fact that we’ve drawn almost 2.5 million fans is a testament to fan loyalty. That is great but it should not make us complacent. And we’re not. We know the fans are not going to continue to support the Mariners if we don’t turn it around. We have not gotten there as quickly as I had hoped.
While I remain a fan of the team it’s been getting harder & harder to drag myself to Safeco to watch a team that is surounded by horrible management and ownership.
I’m relatively encouragd by the team. They are getting better. I’m disgusted with the ownership.
I think I’m just going to slide from season tickets to buying a few individual games to go watch teams like the Red Sox and some division rivals. The team will get less of my money. Multiply me by a few thousand more people and you’ll see some pretty good financial losses.
Kinda proves the point, doesn’t it? Would Howie feel anything was “critical”, like say winning, if attendance was up? Methinks not.
And re-read the first quote. Howie is using “winning” as an adjective describing the public persona of his young, established team. As far as that team’s performance goes, Howie requires only a “legitimate contender.” Legitimate contenders don’t have to win or play .500 ball. They just can’t go on 0-11 road trips that erode public interest in August and hurt attendance.
182 – Right on. That’s what I did this year.
Still, Howie and Chuck are damn good at this. Safeco Field is a great asset and they control it on favorable terms. It won’t be easy to force a loss on them.
And re-read the first quote. Howie is using “winning†as an adjective describing the public persona of his young, established team.
sorry– not how I read it.
179-I was unclear. Hargrove should be fired (among other reasons) because he still thinks regularly playing WFB was a good thing according to the quote in the PI.
Legitimate contenders don’t have to win or play .500 ball.
Um, unless you’re discussing the 1973 NL East, 1984 AL West or 2005 NL West, you won’t contend without being above .500.
There were 15,000 season ticket holders this year, and if I had to guess after this headline came out, there will be 5,000 of those people canceling.
That’s about 1/3 of their season ticket base gone, and certainly many more fans will send nasty emails and phone calls their way. We’ll see what happens, but barring a miracle, “The Idiot Trust” is back for another year.
The good news is watching the Cougs play USC on Saturday might make me feel slightly better. . .
Um, the point is that Howie’s definition of “legitimate contender” is defined without reference to win/loss.
Howie’s “legitimate contender” is a team the public perception of which is sufficient to maintain attendance at budgeted levels.
I think you’ll also see a big dip in weekend season ticket holders and package deals. The allure of Safeco is wearing off. It’s a decent way to spend an afternoon but it’s not an “event” the way it used to be. The field itself just isn’t go to be enough to drag people out.
I think you’ll also see a big dip in weekend season ticket holders and package deals. The allure of Safeco is wearing off. It’s a decent way to spend an afternoon but it’s not an “event†the way it used to be. The field itself just isn’t go to be enough to drag people out.
That usually how it works with new parks, anyway. Can’t believe even the Ms would be that stupid to think they could have a cash cow without a winning team.
#167: See, now that’s fair. So if you’re fed up, don’t renew your season tickets. It was your choice to buy them, it’s your choice to not renew them.
Don’t renew them, huh? Have you got any idea how much Charter Seat Licenses cost when the stadium opened?
The team has CSL holders my the short hairs. Not renewing is not a realistic option, the resale value of those CSL is at an all-time low, and the team is doing nothing to make the value higher.
There were zero bids on a 20-game CSL offered on eBay last week for the low, low “Buy It Now” price of $7,500, and bidding started at $6000. Not a single bid was offered.
eBay Link
There’s no point in my sending in an email to the team to register a protest. They know, and I know, I’m stuck with them. I’m signed up for 81 games at whatever price they choose to charge me through 2018.
LB: yes, that bites. in your shoes, the decision is much much harder, just as it is in the shoes of those folks who may not be charter seat holders, but who have been season ticket holders long enough that they’ve moved into optimal territory. for the rest of the season ticket holders though, the ones who don’t ever get to move up…the choice is a little easier.
ya know, the best seats in the house at cheney stadium cost $600 for an entire year. that is the first 2 rows and includes parking for every game as well as guaranteed promotional items and special incentive prizes (like throwing out a ceremonial first pitch or taking batting practice). Okay, so the price will probably be going up, what with the new owner, but still….. best decision I ever made. (well, one of the best)
I think I’d pay good money to see someone perform neuro-surgery on wombats.
More than I pay to go to M’s games (I’m a bleacher bum that bum-rushes the other sections with open seats).
Well, guys, I’ve been telling you off and on all season that the M’s problems start at the top. Do you believe me now?? I’ve also been telling you that the only way anything is ever going to change is if the fans STOP SUBSIDIZING THIS #$@%##&**!! In other words, quit going to games. Money is the only thing Armstrong and Lincoln understand or care about. I’ve been to one M’s game since 2003 (and I only went to that one because it was a church outing). I used to be a 16-game package holder every year (starting back when they were 20-game packages). I absolutely refuse to support this @#%$, and you should too.