In Better News
Dave · May 22, 2008 at 12:57 pm · Filed Under Mariners
I’m back on KJR tomorrow at 3:35 pm – Groz is filling in for the day, so they’re pulling me back out to issue a post mortem on this horrible, awful team.
I’m back on KJR tomorrow at 3:35 pm – Groz is filling in for the day, so they’re pulling me back out to issue a post mortem on this horrible, awful team.
I know we’ve talked a ton, but has anyone put it all together in one place so that it can be easily communicated on the radio, in the papers, etc?
I understand that lack of talent and a poorly constructed team are the main reasons the Mariners are lousy, but don’t you guys think that it’s even more than that?
No, I don’t. Talentlessness trumps desire, chemistry, pride, or any other psychological hokem you want to invoke. This is a badly-assembled team of mostly overpaid, mostly mediocre talents who aren’t being used in ways that compensate for their weaknesses or maximize their abilities. You don’t need to look any farther than that.
Look, you’ll find more “pride” and “will to win” and “chemistry” on your average Special Olympics team than you will find almost anywhere else, but if you run them out against a professional sports team you think they’d have a chance? This is your Seattle Mariners, the Special Olympics of baseball.
I understand that lack of talent and a poorly constructed team are the main reasons the Mariners are lousy, but don’t you guys think that it’s even more than that?
Yeah, it’s bad luck. The 2008 Mariners are 18-30 after 48 games. The 2004 Mariners after 48 games were also 18-30. I don’t think the 2008 Mariners are a 61-101 “true talent” team (which is what their current record projects out to). It’s very obvious that’s the case when you look at the 2008 roster compared to 2004.
That being said, it would appear that they weren’t really a 88-74 “true talent” team in 2007, and that 79-83 (their Pythag record) was about right, and the moves they made (adding Bedard, dropping Jones and Guillen, and ignoring any defensive issues, the black hole at 1B, or the possibilities that Vidro wouldn’t be able to repeat a fluky 2007, or that Kenji’s odometer at C would roll over and void the warranty, or that injuries could hurt the rotation and bullpen), didn’t really improve the team appreciably, and arguably, it’s gone backwards some.
The reality is that while the team was never as good as when the Bakers and others of the world were predicting contention in the AL West, it’s not as bad now as it seems, either. Felix+Bedard+Beltre+Ichiro+Putz(+maybe Lopez, Clement, Wlad) is a fine base to start with…. given competent management that can correctly identify weaknesses and strengths of the current roster. The problem is this management team has NO clue how to do this, because they are stuck on using evaluation tools that won’t work when your competition is Beane and Epstein, and there’s an absurd amount of veteran entitlement spread through the organization (I would submit that these factors are more than somewhat related).
Howie: “Chuck,some of the fans are calling for Bill’s head.”
Chuckie: “Why,do they wanna go bowling?”
Howie:”No, dummy. They want him fired.”
Chuckie: “Hmmm. Yeah. Let’s go to Vegas. Pass me some of that escargot.”
I hope you tell KJR, that despite being very grateful to ownership for the excitement of the Gillick/Piniella era, there are some of us who feel they are the problem, not the solution,and that some of us want a completely new plan.
This is a badly-assembled team of mostly overpaid, mostly mediocre talents who aren’t being used in ways that compensate for their weaknesses or maximize their abilities.
Eloquently stated. The only reason to “look any farther than that” is to try to understand WHY the team was assembled so poorly and is now being managed so poorly. It is simply organizational ignorance incompetence, or is it more insidious that that…
The reality is that while the team was never as good as when the Bakers and others of the world were predicting contention in the AL West, it’s not as bad now as it seems, either. Felix+Bedard+Beltre+Ichiro+Putz(+maybe Lopez, Clement, Wlad) is a fine base to start with…. given competent management that can correctly identify weaknesses and strengths of the current roster. The problem is this management team has NO clue how to do this, because they are stuck on using evaluation tools that won’t work when your competition is Beane and Epstein, and there’s an absurd amount of veteran entitlement spread through the organization (I would submit that these factors are more than somewhat related).
Well said.
I am sorry I mentioned the chemistry word earlier, even if it was in sarcasm. Yesterday was way more fun when we got to blame Burke for everything.
Two good pitchers coming up, NYY aren’t very good this year. I’m still feeling confident we’re going to win one on this road trip. I’m just ignoring the many more chances we have to lose.
I just want to say that I think this is really important and doesn’t get nearly enough consideration. “Bad luck” means “chance”, not some mystical mojo. Chance plays an enormous role in the outcome of a baseball game.
It would be wrong to expect a new skipper to do what Jack McKeon did in Florida or Phil Garner in Houston. Right now I’d settle for a sense of order and a feeling the inmates aren’t running the asylum. I’m talking to you, Jarrod.
Ponies. The Ms are a multi-year project.
Do they have anyone in the development pipeline that is going to star somewhere up the middle? Can Clement really C, and what about SS, 2B, CF?
The M’s could realistically end up in the playoffs next year.
Development pipeline?
Groz may not ask you this, Dave, so I will: what’s your solution at 1B?
The Mariners have had four years to develop or acquire a power-hitting prospect who can replace Richie Sexson. Who’s the future for this position? Jeff Clement? Raul Ibanez is a free agent in 2009 and won’t sign here to DH. Do you make him a 1B? Trade him for one? (If the FO loves him that much, they ship him to a contender and then re-sign him after the season is over.)
Teixera.
You either convert Clement to first base or trade him and bring in a new 1B from outside the organization.
#28 that was more hilarious the second time around. Thanks for that, I was tired of laughing only about the M’s.
62: First base is never a position that should be a difficulty for an organization. There are free resources lying around the weak side of the defensive spectrum all the time (e.g., Bucky Jacobsen). The M’s haven’t developed a first baseman since Tino, who left in 1995, and they’ve been fine there most of the time (the last two years being the real exceptions). Ibanez isn’t going to get any offers to play anything other than DH after 2009.
Clement for Votto
hook it up!
I don’t get KJR over here, what was said?
68, it’s tomorrow.
Ponies. The Ms are a multi-year project.
Really? They’ve got plenty of salary coming off the books in 2009, and replacing Sexson and Vidro with free talent that can hit .260/.320/.425 is ridiculously easy, given a competent GM. While Washburn, Silva and Batista look terrible right now, they are the same players they have always been- put in a defense behind them that could actually GET to balls in play and they’d go from being horrible to likely fooling people they are fairly good. Remember, this team was able to win 90 games with guys like Paul Abbott and Ryan Franklin- you don’t need Cy Young Award winners at 3/4/5 with a decent defense.
The organization is good at finding 1-2 young bullpen arms a year, and there’s talent in the system, even though the top level isn’t really stocked. Seriously, this is not 2004, where you had the decrepit hulks of Boone, Edgar, Olerud, Aurilia, Spiezio, and Wilson playing 6 out of 9 positions in the batting order, and basically nothing behind them, and Felix and Bedard are CLEARLY better than Freddy was.
How much of the cash coming off the books for Sexson and Vidro is going to be required to keep Bedard?
71: You think Bedard has any interest in staying here? ROFL
He’ll be a cub, dodger, yankee, red sock or angel this time next year
Teixera 2009 ~= Sexson 2004
Teixera 2008: .274 / .365/ .440
Sexson 2003: .272 / .379 / .548
Yes, there are differences, obviously. But they’ll be the same age, and in both cases you’ll end up paying too much for too many years to fill a non-premium defensive position with an “established veteran.” The definition of insanity is to repeat the same actions expecting a different result. Well, if not insanity then perpetual, failing mediocrity. To quote Dave writing at another site (The whole comment thread there is worth reading)
If Teixera is the answer, you’re asking the wrong question.
He’ll be a cub, dodger, yankee, red sock or angel this time next year
The M’s have him for 2009 (Bedard can’t enter free agency until after the 2009 season, so either they offer him something he likes or they go to arbitration, but either way he can’t leave this offseason). I don’t see them trading him in the offseason, but of course it’s possible, just as it’s possible he’ll be traded at the deadline in July next year, though as the authors here have shown, allowing veterans to walk and picking up the compensatory draft pick often works out just as well.
It’s Teixeira, I believe
Yeah, I was just copying and pasting what he wrote. Seemed funnier at the time.
ummmm…. okay?
Well, that explains why nobody told me. =D
There are some reasons to believe Teixeira wont continue to underperform in 2008. However, if he does, it could lower his market value.
You’re comparing less than half a season of Mark Teixeira (a half season in which his BABIP is down ~25 points from his career norms) to a full season of Sexson. Tex is better defensively, gets on base at a higher clip than Sexson during his peak, and he shouldn’t age as badly as Richie.
I would be in favor of a Teixeira signing, but I’m willing to accept that there’s a case to be made against it. I’m not willing to accept that Teixeira is not a much better option in 2009 than Sexson was in 2005.
I don’t see why, Teixeira is a much better contact hitter, is a terrific defender, doesn’t have the injury history, and is suited for this ballpark.
Helton, Giambi, Delgado, Sexson, Thome, Konerko, Hafner… signing 1B/DHs to long term, big money deals never works.
Typical Idiot Fan: I don’t get KJR over here, what was said?
You can listen to it on their stream at KJRam.com. Click “Listen Live” at the top left.
The 2008 Mariners:
“Paper bags on sale now!”
I am eagerly anticipating Dave’s return to the airwaves. I’m picturing him right now sharpening a pitchfork and lighting torches.
I’m with joser re: Teixeira. I think he’s gonna have injury trouble, and decline from this point
Since the Friday game blog thread isn’t up yet:
4:38 p.m.: This from MLB:
New York Yankees manager Joe Girardi has been suspended for one game and fined an undisclosed amount for his inappropriate actions, which included kicking dirt on Umpire Chris Guccione, during the bottom of the ninth inning of his Club’s game last night against the Baltimore Orioles at Yankee Stadium. Girardi is scheduled to serve his suspension tonight, when the Yankees host the Seattle Mariners.
Remains to be seen whether the Yankees play better WITHOUT Girardi egging on the hotheads, but this is a great chance to win against a club being run one game by the bench coach.
…essentially that’s been the situation for the past year with the M’s themselves, which SHOULD even the playing field, right? 🙂