Snark snark snark
When I’m not fielding complaints that I’m an Ichiro! fanboy (I am) I sometimes take time out to address complaints that I’m unreasonably attached to Adam Jones, just because I was a huge booster through his minor league career and all and didn’t start hating him when he got traded. Or something.
Anyway, yeah, so Adam Jones is hitting .250/.295/.357. That sure does suck.
That’s a better on-base percentage than four players in the M’s starting lineup tonight.
It’s a better slugging percentage than three (including two of those).
It’s a better OPS than our team’s catchers and our designated hitter.
It is only 13 points under the M’s team OBP and 28 points under the M’s team SLG.
And unlike the M’s, Jones plays defense.
So for those who would say that Jones sucks, I say that then the M’s must really suck, and maybe we ought to focus on fixing that rather than chuck stones at a prospect who used to play for the organization.
I feel like there’s a certain amount of bigotry involved when people pile on Adam Jones. If he were a white ballplayer I don’t think he’d get the kind of abuse he gets from M’s fans. And even if he were a Latin ballplayer I don’t think it’d be as bad. Remember all the abuse Gri**ey took when he came up for wearing his cap backwards? Racism is usually much more subtle than, ‘Hey, ni**er!!’.
I honestly don’t think that’s it at all, galaxieboy. I think it’s just that people want to think that this trade had some ounce of a good idea or usefulness somewhere. When, in fact, it just didn’t.
why, just this afternoon Gas assured me that is was a good idea then, and it is still a good idea.
Jeez, that race card came out of the blue. I’d say it’s more that Derek and Dave have a prominent blog, and they’re often correct about things. If someone they’ve proved wrong in the past thinks he or she has a chance to prove DMZ or Dave wrong, such a person will often jump at the chance. It’s small and petty, but people just like to argue. Fact of life.
There are a lot of personal attacks going on though. It isn’t just, ‘oh, he sucks!!11’. But there are foolios at Baker’s blog saying all kinds of really nasty stuff.
Making excuses for the team is one thing, and a thing I can understand. However, after watching how Lastings Milledge was treated in particular and African-American ballplayers in general I’m a little wary that it’s just dumb fandom kicking in. But I totally see your point, lailaihei.
I’ve always liked Jones. Dave, what type of offensive numbers do you see Jones putting up in 2009 & 2010?
Jeez, that race card came out of the blue.
Not really. Black American ballplayers have got a raw deal for more than a little while now.
If someone they’ve proved wrong in the past thinks he or she has a chance to prove DMZ or Dave wrong, such a person will often jump at the chance.
I don’t doubt there are some idiots who love to fling poo at Dave and Derek. However, the authors of USSM aren’t the only ones putting up with some poster’s…gleeful excitement of Adam Jones’ “slow start”.
Again, I’m certainly not attibuting all of the piling on of Adam Jones to bigots. There’s certainly a huge Mariner fandom contingent who’ll always justify, no matter how silly, every front office move.
I just reread my plea to the Mariners this winter not to trade for Bedard. In the email to the M’s I suggested that getting Bedard in the 4-1 deal (it became 5-1 after my plea). I said is it worth it financially to trade your future to be play .500?
My argument in a nutshell was that 60 starts and 360 innings of Bedard over two years is worth 4-6 wins a year over a “Baek”. Financially Bedard is only a draw in 15 home games a year for a total of 30 home games in the contract. Its simply not even close to the value of Jones who has 6 years and about 450 home games to draw fans, never mind the other prospects could be a Bedard.
After years of watching baseball top guys like Jones typically do the following.
.250/300/400 year one
.280/333/450 year two
.300/360/480 years three, four, five, six
Their response was basically obviously you have thought a lot about this but we are trying to win now…
I have been a huge fan of the M’s since 1981 and must say Bavasi makes me feel like anybody with a copy of Bill James, Sickels and a subscription to Baseball Prospectus would be a better GM than Bill. I ask what does he do well? He can’t spend money well look at the contracts he signs not one is a good deal for the M’s, they are at or over market value at signings. He doesn’t win like stand Pat and while hes been ok at rebuilding the farm (BA and Sickels would not agree though) he has no idea how to make prospects successful re: Jones, Morrow, Clement.
I think our only hope is to write Mariner ownership explaining their investment will crash with the current management running the show.
Did you just call Jones a prospect? What’s that buzzy noise?
Harping on Jones/Bedard *now* is as pointless as arguing whether Bush or Gore won in 2000. At this point, it doesn’t matter. Rehashing the past is a fruitless exercise, unless the purpose is to avoid history repeating itself.
The problem is that we could have used both guys. Anyone who thinks Jones wouldn’t make a difference in the M’s lineup now is smoking ass-crack.
Derek, no need to explain yourself. Jones is posting numbers to take care of his side of the argument.
Could either one of you write an open letter to Mariner’s F.O. (a la Felix) demanding accountability and/or change? How would they explain the record, horrible attendance, horrible play on the field, etc. etc. etc beyond the players stinking. I’m hoping that change is on the horizon, but who really knows. I’m sure the F.O. does not read comments from us troglodytes, but you know big brother keeps tabs on your blog.
Even with his crappy numbers. And not even considering his future.
Creating a hole to plug another is a DUMB idea, particularly if you want to contend. Wish people would cotton to that.
I’m long past worrying about the trade. But AJ and Sherrill are part of the select players I follow pretty closely and wish well. I even went to one of those miserable Oriole games when it was 45 degrees out so I could cheer for AJ. A bunch of other people in my section did the same thing.
I’m not sure how that makes me a traitor to the cause, but I’ve been accused of it. The off-season got pretty heated in cyberspace and there hasn’t been any reason for goodwill to replace it, I guess.
I’m sorry I can’t remember whose idea it was earlier this year, but I love the image of the clown car and the Mariners’ FO running around it fixing one piece at a time as the whole thing runs out of control. It’s one of the few things that brings a smile to my face when I see Raul play, uh, defense.
#10 — Who knew Antonin Scalia was an Ms fan? Welcome.
Is he back to being a prospect now? Swarm of bees!
11- how would Dave or DMZ explain the M’s failures in a way they haven’t already discussed 1000 times over for the last 3+ years? Your idealism that there are good people in the FO who just need their eyes opened is unfounded.
The M’s as currently comprised don’t value defense, are skeptical of young players, and worry too much about strikeouts. Those three things mean they were probably destined to undervalue Jones.
DMZ you are right, Jones is better than many of our players. But I believe he is the second coming of Mike Cameron or T. Hunter at best.
I really think we believe that Jones is far better than he truly is – and I truly believe / doubt he will become the monster so many M’s fans seem to believe.
I am still surprised Bedard is struggling. If he continues this decline … no matter if Jones is a second coming of ‘Cameron’ or ‘Torii Hunter’ or even Jose Cruse Jr. this trade will be a bust.
Still pretty good and undervalued players.
The issue isn’t that USSM believes Jones is far better than he truly is. The issue is that the majority of the baseball world vastly underestimates how valuable peak performance Mike Cameron was.
Yeah. FOlks shouldn’t be making the mistake of judging players only by their bat. OK to good bat coupled with historically good defense means a GREAT player.
Speaking of former Mariners, Shin-Soo Choo went 2-2 with a homer and 3 RBIs tonight.
It’s too bad he had to spend so many of his peak years in a park that ate him alive. I always thought the “Jones isn’t as good as you guys think, he’s probably no better than Cameron” line was a strange argument, because it was intended to be negative, but I saw it as a positive thing.
Worst trade in franchise history…period…
25 – Heathcliff Slocumb for Jason Veritek & Derek Lowe and I will think of more
Also now that I think about it more … I think that Jose Cruz Jr was just as highly touted a prospect in his time as Adam Jones … if Cruz Jr would have panned out there would be no doubt that this trade would be even worse than any other one.
unlike AJ, not outside of Seattle.
We’ve discussed the Cruz-Jones comparison a couple times here, it’s not a particularly good one to draw.
Last horrible trade. I promise 🙂 … in 1996 the Mariners traded David Ortiz to the Minnesota Twins for Dave Hollins.
Let’s be honest, there is no way to know how bad this trade can possibly be until it plays out a little more. The Mariners have done some piss poor trades in the past but has so has every team: We all know about Buhner for Ken Phelps fiasco… which is often considered one of the worst made by the Yankees of that period.
I’m just saying, at least we got Erik Bedard for these guys … the guy has tossed some Gem’s this year and is a GREAT pitcher as firmly noted by many USSM authorities along with numerous people on this board.
This is not the worst trade in Mariner history (at least not yet) – but I can see how it is easy to declare it so in such a disastrous season.
Evaluating trades based on later results is a bad idea; witness the “trading Ichiro for a can of Sprite” example in this post.
31 – TY will read
just read that, and sorry GB I couldn’t disagree with that statement more. Site: Obama.
Maybe some people are still bigots but COME ON. That statement is flat out ridiculous.
Heh. Countercite: Bradley effect. West Virginia voters.
I think a lot of people can’t get past results-based analysis. Their entire conception of Adam Jones was that he was called up to the M’s a couple of times and didn’t hit. Therefore, he sucks, and always will suck, and no argument based on skills or ability or talent or potential will sway them. You saw the same thing with Clement (the folks who said he deserved to be sent back down) and you even see the same thing with Felix (“Why do we still call him ‘the King’?” “When will he live up to all the advance praise you heaped on the guy?”)
I’m sure these same people (or the many others like them) were making the same comments about ARod after his limp first year in the bigs.
For the people stating it’s “ridiculous”, while I wouldn’t have said the Jones dislike (if it’s even that) is racially motivated, what’s more ridiculous than that is pretending like race does not play a part in EVERYTHING when it comes to people of color. Unfortunately, that’s the world we live it but it’s gotten much better over the years. Just know that race always plays a part.
Bringing up Obama is laughable given the effects his race has had on the election and the way people talk about him publicly or privately.
Maybe some people are still bigots but COME ON. That statement is flat out ridiculous.
So, you’re using Obama’s presumptive nomination to say that bigotry as any kind of influence in American culture is something out of the 60’s? Trying paying attention to the little things sometime and not to just those who shout their beliefs at you. Like I said, racism doesn’t always rear its ugly head with a white hood on top.
Let’s be really, really careful with the race discussion, guys.
I’m not going to remove any posts even though I probably should, since it’s a slow day (this doesn’t mean that someone else might not make them go bye-bye) but if the conversation turns ugly I can’t promise that’ll continue.
Sorry, Jeff.
And, Jones is only 22. There will be players taken in the draft who will start their professional careers at that age.