Comment of the day
I’m getting tired of this race to the bottom/Strasburg sweepstakes shit. Cheering against your team is — purely in my opinion — sucky behavior even if it results in a long-term benefit. But it goes beyond that.
Look:
1. The Nationals are a way worse team (hard as that is to believe) and they have a much harder schedule over the remaining weeks. The M’s are not going to catch them at the bottom.
2. Even with first pick, the Nationals might not bust slot to pick Strasburg
3. Even if the M’s have first pick, or the Nat’s do but pass on Strasburg, the M’s may not bust slot to pick him either.
4. Even if the M’s do end up with Strasburg, he may never see the majors (Ryan Christianson ring a bell?) or he may end up not being anything special (Jeff Austin? Tim Stauffer?) or he might blow up his arm (too many to list).All of this means that talking about Strasburg all the time makes you sound like the guy who insists he’s going to move to California where Angelina Jolie will divorce Brad Pitt and marry him. Yeah, it’s possible but it’s unlikely, and even if it happens it’s still getting annoying to listen to. I realize there’s essentially no reason left to watch the team except the pure love of baseball, but tedious and repetitive is tedious and repetitive, no matter how likely (or not). You’re being worse than a bad fan. You’re being boring. Don’t be boring.
Yeah there really are much better things to talk about, like how drunk you’d have to get Omar Minaya before he thought that taking on Carlos Silva is a good idea.
This is the problem with guaranteed contracts in baseball. When the Seahawks locked up Shaun Alexander for way too long at way too much money and he promptly (and predictably) sucked, they cut him and only had to pay his bonus. Raise your hand if you wouldn’t mind being out from under Silva’s albatross?
I agree…
I finally bit the bullet and made the trek to Seatle for some M’s games this year….and am I ever glad I did…
My daughter and I got to run the bases at Safeco…Tug Hullet was nice enough to sign a ball for my girlfriend’s son…the M’s won both games-and they were actually good games…Cairo hit two doubles, a triple and made a few highlight worthy defensive plays..although I still don’t want to see him on our roster next year…and I ate the damn garlic fries, saw Kenji, JLo and Beltre hit some funk blasts…and I didn’t mind at all…
now sing it with me…
‘Joser’s on a vacation far away…come around and talk it over…’
*grin*
Go M’s!
Amen. I think it’s foolish to hang hopes on ONE draft pick- and besides, King Felix is pretty awesome, and it’s not exactly turned us into a World Series contender.
Strasburg will likely be Major League ready by this time next year. He isn’t Ryan Christianson.
I’m tired of the comments too, but he’s worth the hype.
Amen.
As much as I would like to get a top notch picture like Strasburg, if we don’t get him, maybe we can get a good bat for 3rd, LF, CF or 1B. We will need those in the future also. Any ideas?
“Strasburg will likely be Major League ready by this time next year. He isn’t Ryan Christianson.”
No, he isn’t, as he’s not a catcher. 😉
(I think joser’s original comment as well as the one I quoted were both referring to Ryan Anderson, the M’s first round pick in 1997 who is now out of baseball after 3 shoulder surgeries.)
Although Christianson was a washout with the M’s(suspended for steroid use in 2005 and let go by the end of that same year), he might still be holding onto a shred of a hope for a career in baseball. Last I heard he was in the Cardinals’ minor league system.
I missed the original thread, but I think there are some things worth pointing out:
1. The gap in value between the first pick and the second pick is usually pretty considerable, no?
2. Unlike in basketball, where there’s a lottery system and tanking only increases your odds of getting the top pick, finishing dead-last in baseball will guarantee your team that top pick.
3. Is it really that awful — at a point in the year where winning doesn’t really matter — to at least hope we get a No. 1 pick out of this embarrassment of a season?
I think it’s crazy to hang your hat on that, and I’m already tired of hearing about Strasburg, but I also have to acknowledge that there are legit reasons to hope for a last-place finish. Whether it’s Strasburg or not, it’s better than having the No. 2 or No. 3 pick. I choose to be less vocal about my interest in finishing dead-last, because I’m not really that proud of it, but there’s definitely a part of me that wants it. When I tune into the game, I root for the M’s to win, but I can’t help but think that it’s a fruitless endeavor. (Then again, so is hoping that we can possibly be worse than the Nats, as Joser pointed out. Good God that team is awful.)
The bottom line is: having the top pick is better than not having it, so I want it. But by no means am I going to set my heart on one name. And I’m so tired of hearing the kid’s name that I’m already bored of him.
“Cheering against your team is — purely in my opinion — sucky behavior even if it results in a long-term benefit.”
It is, purely in my opinion, sucky not to root for your team to lose if you believe that losing will make them better. If you don’t believe it will help, okey-dokey.
But to say it is inherently sucky or makes you a bad fan to hope for your team to lose under any circumstances is intentionally limited thinking. Like bumper-sticker patriotism. Or, more directly… I always loved Coke (a-cola)… new Coke was an abomination. I rooted passionately for it to fail. And when it did – voila, Classic Coke.
Success and failure can have a big influence on future decisions. It is beyond ok to root for bad decisions to have bad outcomes.
“1. The Nationals are a way worse team (hard as that is to believe) and they have a much harder schedule over the remaining weeks. The M’s are not going to catch them at the bottom.”
“2. Even with first pick, the Nationals might not bust slot to pick Strasburg”
3. Even if the M’s have first pick, or the Nat’s do but pass on Strasburg, the M’s may not bust slot to pick him either.
4. Even if the M’s do end up with Strasburg, he may never see the majors (Ryan Christianson ring a bell?) or he may end up not being anything special (Jeff Austin? Tim Stauffer?) or he might blow up his arm (too many to list).”
You can make similar arguments against anything in baseball. Root for the M’s to keep player X? Why bother? He could get hurt. Lot’s of players gets injured. Maybe this, maybe that.
I know practically nothing of Strasburg. But I’d guess we are more likely to get him with pick one than two, however marginally, so if it is important to someone, why can’t they root for that?
“All of this means that talking about Strasburg all the time makes you sound like the guy who insists he’s going to move to California where Angelina Jolie will divorce Brad Pitt and marry him. Yeah, it’s possible but it’s unlikely, and even if it happens it’s still getting annoying to listen to.”
Now, that, which I think is the main thrust of your post is totally valid. I feel that way about many, many topics concerning the Mariners. I just don’t see why you need to drag rooting for the M’s to lose into it.
“I realize there’s essentially no reason left to watch the team except the pure love of baseball, but tedious and repetitive is tedious and repetitive, no matter how likely (or not).”
There is also watching the team to hope they fail, even for the tiny glimmer of hope that it will help them see the light and mend their ways. It happens all the time in sports.
It just happened with my beloved Dolphins. After years of avoiding a rebuild, they finally fired everybody and blew the whole damn thing up. History tells us they would not have done that if they were 7-9 last year. But 1-15? Cha-cha-cha-changes. Poopy coach and poopy gm run out of town, Parcells drives in with a tank… boom, new dolphins. WHICH, by the way, I will not root hard for them to win every game, even when they’re out of it, because it will be a team going the right direction, doing the right things, trying the right way.
Team headed the right way… root for them to win every game. Even unimportant ones.
Team headed the WRONG way… root for them to lose every time they can lose. In embarrassing ways, if possible.
Hell, it happens with people… sometimes you can watch the addict hit rock bottom and finally get help.
“You’re being worse than a bad fan. You’re being boring. Don’t be boring.”
80-82 is boring.
50-112 is riveting.
Anyway, to sum up…I am totally with you on over-used stuff like the Strasburg thing.
Not with you on the bad fan thing.
Long-term fans should root for the long term good of the team.
Chuck-Howard fans should root for the team to win. The rest of us should root for great baseball games that end in an L for the M’s.
Agree with John, though I’m happy with W’s that involve good games by players who don’t suck (Ichiro, Beltre, Felix, RRS, Morrow, and such).
I’m getting tired of this race to the playoffs shit. Cheering for another team (even when your team provides no compelling reason to watch) is — purely in my opinion — sucky behavior even if it results in a great deal of entertainment. But it goes beyond that.
Look:
1. The (whichever team you’ve adopted as a surrogate) are a way better team (easy as that is to believe) and they have a much harder schedule over the remaining weeks. The M’s are still going to hit rock bottom (God I’m hoping they have already)most likely when they announce their new GM.
2. Even if your surrogate finishes first, they might not win a playoff game.
3. Even if they win the first round, they still might not win another playoff game.
4. Even if your surrogate team makes it to the world series, they may never win a game, or they may end up being kind of boring, or their first baseman might let a grounder go through his legs at a critical moment in the series turning sure victory into a Greek tragedy.
All of this means that talking about good teams all the time makes you sound like the guy who insists he’s going to move to California where Angelina Jolie will divorce Brad Pitt and marry him. Yeah, it’s possible but it’s unlikely, and even if it happens it’s still getting annoying to listen to. I realize there’s essentially no reason left to watch the team except the pure love of baseball, but tedious and repetitive is tedious and repetitive, no matter how likely (or not). You’re being worse than a bad fan. You’re being boring. Don’t be boring.
Now be like good, interesting fans and keep rehashing all things Mariner where the minutia drains calcium from the skeleton of hope’s soul.
Hope-it’s all most of us need to hang in there. Just a glimmer. Give us just enough to let us dream.
Consider Strasburg fantasies to by the equivalent of a dollar that was just spent on a lottery ticket. Not a great retirement plan, no doubt. But daydreaming about winning it while being stuck in traffic might just make the 90 minute trip to work a little less unbearable.
It’s true that Strasburg could end up never making a major league roster, but that’s true for any prospect. He’s got a better shot at being an impact player than 43rd round pick John Doe.
I feel like rooting against your team is akin to betting on the “don’t pass line” in craps. It just flies in the face of all those still at the table rooting for the team to win.
Okay, so you want to root for the team to lose,then keep it too yourself.
The Strasburg thing was fine until all of you started copying me.
I’ll admit that I’m not exactly paying close attention these days but I turned on the game on Monday in the 9th and I watched it until Beltre’s blast and my reaction at the end was not to lament that the top pick became harder to get. I root for the M’s. It’s not particularly logical, but it’s what I do. Maybe we’d be better off on some level losing the game, but I still want us to win every night.
I just moved to Virginia, and I watch a few Nats games on TV. Joser is right. The M’s have no shot at catching them unless they don’t show up at the ballpark and intentionally forfeit their remaining games. If we think that the M’s are a mess, look at the Nats. There is not a sliver of hope there.
Is there really any attempt at analysis necessary to know there will be no M’s-Strasburg fairy tale? This IS the Mariners. I almost hope for HIS sake he ends up with a different team.
That said, I turned down free M’s tickets last night to go watch the Aqua Sox in the rain at Everett Memorial. Free parking, $6.50 ESBs, and a great time had by all.
This is the problem with guaranteed contracts in baseball. When the Seahawks locked up Shaun Alexander for way too long at way too much money and he promptly (and predictably) sucked, they cut him and only had to pay his bonus. Raise your hand if you wouldn’t mind being out from under Silva’s albatross?
No, no, a thousand times no. If you think ridiculous stuff happens now, just wait until the only restraint that prevents GMs from doing staggeringly stupid things is removed. Does the Mariners organization really deserve to get out from under Silva’s contract? They signed it, ink on the line at the bottom, just like Silva. If Silva goes 22-4 next year with an 80% GB rate, does he get to unilaterally cancel his contract and go find one that pays twice as much?
What you propose is a gift of money to baseball’s owners, and mostly to the worst, dumbest, and most malevolent of them.
Fine then take Aaron Crow. 🙂
I think that the fact is, for the vast majority of us (that is, regular USSM readers), we really don’t care whether the M’s win or lose. It isn’t going to make us happy or sad either way. At this point in this particular season, if we turn on the TV, or go to a game, it isn’t with a burning desire to see an M’s win. Rather, it is with an eye towards individual performances in light of the future, and because of a love of the game itself, or perhaps it’s just a comforting habit. That said, when the game is on the line, any sports fan will instinctively choose a side – it’s more fun that way. Maybe it’ll change from batter to batter, but rooting for a player or a team is natural. If your instincts are to root against the M’s at some points in some games (hey, maybe Scott Baker is on your fantasy team), there’s nothing wrong with that. I would agree, though, that the repeated rehashing of Strasburg is, for the reasons the poster noted, is misguided, annoying and boring. Also, don’t tell us about your fantasy team…
Lost in the Strasburg talk is the fact that Grant Green is a really, really good option at #2. Might even be a safer bet as a shortstop with plus defense, present hitting ability, and a really high ceiling in the power department.
I think getting Strasburg would be great, but I also think we have some good young arms after the last couple drafts. We really have fewer impact bats. So not “catching” the Nats might be a blessing, if the FO can get a blue-chip offensive player.
My outlook is this: I have the season package on Direct TV and watch every game. Yes. Every game. It drives my girlfriend crazy. I watch hoping that they win every one, but I don’t care if they lose, due to thier basement status. Last year, when they were still in it, every loss was brutal and upset me.
Go Ms!
I’m just finding it really hard to root for the M’s right now. I don’t think I’m the only one.
“80-82 is boring”
80 and 82 may be boring on a team full of washed up veterans, but if the M’s were 80-82 and led by Jones, Clement, Reed, Felix, and Morrow, it would not be boring. It’s exciting watching young talent begin to mature. It’s exciting knowing that they will just get better and better in years to come.
You could easily say the same thing about a lot of subjects that get dead-horsed in these comment threads, like the bemoaning of the incompetence of the front office.
Diversify discussion topics, people.
[blockquote]Even if the M’s do end up with Strasburg, he may never see the majors (Ryan Christianson ring a bell?)[/blockquote]
Ouch. Point taken. I’ll enjoy this rarest of rare three-game winning streaks rather than lamenting what it’s doing to our draft position.
Thanks for the perspective.
Tell that guy moving to California for his stated goal would be a mistake. Brad and Angelina live in New Orleans.
Agree with the sentiment. But I still want to root against the M’s. My reason is so that then we can hope for more meaningful FO change though.
I think much of the opposition to rooting to lose is based in the belief that it’s wrong not to try your best to win.
But I don’t see that. Losing, at this point, benefits this club. Even if we don’t win the race for Strasburg, every position lower we finish improves our draft position. This is a good thing. We should want it.
And after all, isn’t cheering to win getting pretty boring, too? I mean, we do it all the time.
This is the problem with guaranteed contracts in baseball. When the Seahawks locked up Shaun Alexander for way too long at way too much money and he promptly (and predictably) sucked, they cut him and only had to pay his bonus. Raise your hand if you wouldn’t mind being out from under Silva’s albatross?
As NBarnes pointed out, non-guaranteed contracts are a horrifying idea in baseball with the way things are now. Realistically, the only hope they have of working is in a tightly-capped system like the NFL (no, the NBA’s so-called “cap” doesn’t count, and 85% of their contracts are guaranteed anyway), and we’ve already determined that baseball would require a MAJOR overhaul for a salary cap to work.
That’s right. Graham started it!
Just a thought….Tim Lincicum is reportedly going to be year-to-year…I’m sure the M’s could use another hometown player that is at least a 2-3 starter, with a ton of upside….Why talk about a prospect, when we could get a pitcher already at this level, and doing very well? AND, he wouldn’t have to bat like he does now, thus extending his longevity.
Thoughts?
Bravo joser.
All this talk about a guy, who is still at least 10 months away from throwing a pitch in professional baseball, as being the savior of the future is quite silly. I’d rather be excited about seeing Morrow in a Mariners uniform.
My “thought” is that people bringing up Tim Lincecum ad nauseam is far, far more tiresome than the “race for Strasburg” could ever be.
To be fair, he was talking about Tim Lincicum, not Tim Lincecum.
At the risk of being boring and dead horsing another thread I am tired of the myopic hope that we get ANY one guy. It has been brought up before that this team has a bunch of needs that will be popping up within the next couple of years. Might it not be better overall to address multiple needs instead of putting all our eggs into one basket…however flashy and fancy that basket might be?
now which Tim is it that the guys at KJR are unable to forget?
Nah, I was talking about Tim Lincecum, I just can’t type.
I was not aware of this topic being brought up nearly as much as the “S” guy….Sorry about that.
As for “S”, I agree with everyone who says that we shouldn’t concentrate on ONE guy. Especially one that hasn’t thrown a professional pitch yet. But….Here’s Tim’s line this year
14-3 2.48 ERA and 200 Strike outs leads the MLB.
So, why WOULDN’T we be interested?
Okay, all this aside, I think that most M’s fans here still root for the team to win, but are okay with them losing since it aids their draft position, thus seeing things at this point from a win-win perspective… rather than outright wishing for the M’s to lose lose lose.
Yeah, we should trade LaHair and… say, that Tug guy to the Giants for Lincecum.
DMZ, thanks for answering my query in the #131 game thread regarding Strasburg and slotting. I was not clear on how that worked.
I’ll never root for the M’s to lose but I wouldn’t mind seeing them hitting the disgraceful 100 million dollar/100 loss mark either in order to keep pressure on the organization to make changes at the top. It’s a paradox, I know, but there ya go.
We should be able to draft a decent prospect this year in the #2 or #3 spot so I’m not as concerned about who we draft as much as who the M’s have in the front office doing the drafting.
“M’s Finish Surprisingly Strong, Lincoln/Armstrong Pleased With Direction, Lee P Named GM. Rumored extensions for Ibanez and Washburn.”
“M’s Finally End Historically Bad Season, Fire Lincoln/Armstrong. New GM Antonetti Promises New Direction. Ibanez and Washburn Newest Yankees?”
Burn, baby, burn.
“1. The gap in value between the first pick and the second pick is usually pretty considerable, no?”
This quote, and similar ones, brings a question to mind: is there a way to tell when a top draft pick is close to a “sure thing” vs a “risky, but huge upside” gamble? Examples, perhaps, of the former would be Junior and A-Rod, who were much heralded before they even got drafted, got hyped even more when they got picked, were eagerly anticipated as they progressed through the minors — and then more than lived up to the hype. Not so good but still hype-worthy was Darryl Strawberry, who indeed had plenty of talent and some good seasons, but derailed his career with drugs.
And then there’s the Al Chambers and Todd van Poppels and David Clydes of the world, who might make the majors but never amount to much.
All of these players looked good when drafted, some turned out to be as good as advertised and some didn’t: is there a way to figure out in advance who truly is a “can’t miss” prospect?
Pitchers presumably should never get the “can’t miss” label (TNSTAAPP and all that). And there’s always the risk of random injury, drug abuse or whatever derailing a career, but aside from unforeseeable happenstance, are there players who we can point to in advance and say they can’t miss?
In the NBA, there are some “can’t miss” picks such as LeBron James or Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and then there are some #1s who have question marks such as Olowakandi (who turned out to be a bust) and Allen Iverson (who turned out to be good even arguably great). We can’t predict how the question marks will turn out, but the can’t miss guys are pretty much guaranteed all-stars.
Is Strasburg a “can’t miss” or merely a highly promising prospect? Is it even possible to tell, in baseball?
If there are no, or very few, “can’t miss” prospects in baseball, then the logic of tanking in order to get the #1 pick doesn’t make much sense. My guess is that the gap between #1 and #2 isn’t real large overall … well here’s a non-random sample, ranging from Junior to A-Rod (so it’s a biased sample, because at those two endpoints we know we’ll have big gaps between #1 and #2):
#1 and #2 Picks, June Regular Draft (from TheBaseBallCube)
1987: Ken Griffey, Mark Merchant
1988: Andy Benes, Mark Lewis
1989: Ben McDonald, Tyler Houston
1990: Chipper Jones, Tony Clark
1991: Brien Taylor, Mike Kelly
1992: Phil Nevin, Paul Shuey
1993: Alex Rodriguez, Darren Dreifort
Hmm, maybe there IS a big gap between #1 and #2!
I’m not rooting against the M’s because I’m boring; I’m rooting against them because I’m a bad fan.
I hate these Mariners with the flaming passion of hell. I hope they lose every remaining game. I hope they lose them all by embarrassing 20-0 margins. I don’t give a damn about Strasburg. I give a damn about Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong: I want them humiliated. I want them to SUFFER. I want them to lie awake at night weeping silently into their pillows.
Then I want them to be forced out and replaced by people who know the difference between people who can play baseball and people who do not.
Crazy? Maybe. I don’t mind. But not boring.
I love Steve T. But I’m not in love with Steve T.
You picture Armstrong and Lincoln suffering? Crying into their pillows? Come on…they’ll never, ever admit that they’re part of the problem. Executives like that are much too egotistical (and I’m not saying that in a snarky way — that’s just how executives are) to see things like that.
I just can’t envision them being forced out. Bleak view? Yup.
So…just because he might get injured, the Mariners shouldn’t take the best player available?
@47: OK, then, I want them to get caught weeping into the SAME pillow, and fired for moral turpitude. Anything.
Good word, that. Turpitude.
You look at the #1 picks above and they were all position players. I really think that you can’t bank on a #1 pick being the solve all answer for this team. Tim is a great pitcher but how are the Giants doing, they still SUCK! Thier going to get a high draft pick but I’d rather watch the young guys play and not watch the M’s get killed every night. We have a large payroll we just need a GM who can do something with it.