Franklin Gutierrez Is Really, Really Good At Defense
The trade’s not official yet, but I wanted to get this out there before the instant reactions come in and people think we screwed the pooch by trading for a RH outfielder who posted a sub .700 OPS last year.
Franklin Gutierrez is something like one of the top 5-10 defensive outfielders in baseball. Not corner outfielders – outfielders.
In 1,773 innings in RF/LF, he’s racked up a UZR of +29.6. Those are crazy, Carl Crawford, “why aren’t you playing center field?” kind of numbers. Not surprisingly, in the 159 innings he has played CF (the Indians have this Sizemore kid you may have heard of), Gutierrez was +2.6, which translates to +17 runs over a full season.
Now, he’s probably not that good. The only guys who have really, truly been +20 or better in full time center field action are the early decade versions of Mike Cameron and Darin Erstad. So maybe he’s really more like a +10 CF or a +20 RF/LF (the average CF is 10 runs better than the average corner OF, so Gutierrez’s numbers are right in line with what we’d expect).
That puts him up there with the best of the best in terms of defensive outfielders. He’s better than Ichiro, better than guys like Torii Hunter or Vernon Wells, better than Jacoby Ellsbury. Franklin Gutierrez can run down fly balls in the outfield with the best of him.
The bat has question marks, there’s no doubt about it. And we’ll talk about all that when the trade becomes official. But don’t get caught up in thinking that Gutierrez is just a decent glove like Reed was. Gutierrez is a defensive monster.
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26 Responses to “Franklin Gutierrez Is Really, Really Good At Defense”
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Gutierrez is good at defense? So is Steve Moss.. so is Mel Stocker… We got these guys for free because they were really good CFers and couldn’t hit.
What makes Gutierrez different? Its not like he’s 22 and needs a year or two to get acclimated. He has had those 2 years in the bigs and hasn’t shown he is getting any better with the bat.
Defense matters. A lot. This is a fight you’re not going to win.
There’s not this big “good at defense” group where all 200 players who have any defensive value are all equal. Gutierrez’s OF glove is up there with the very best of the best. He’s an elite defender in every sense of the word.
Comparing him to Steve Moss and Mel Stocker is laughable.
Look, I understand that defense is a VERY important part of the game, but you could be the best defensive team in the world, and if you cant hit, you’re not gonna win many ballgames. You can’t play defense against a home run, and if the other team hits balls OVER the fence, then your light hitting, REALLY good defensive team is going to lose ball games because they can’t hit. You seem to put far too much of an emphasis on defense. Sure, preventing runs is just as important as scoring them, but not more so, and this team can’t score runs. Franklin Gutierrez is not going to help that problem. If we pick up another bat or two before the season, then he’ll be a fine pick up, but if we don’t, then look at our lineup right now and tell me how this team is gonna win games. Even really good defensive, fundamentally sound teams like the Rays, (whom you say are a team we should strive to be like) have atleast 2 to 3 really good hitters in the middle of their lineup. I’m just sayin, it sounds real cool to sound like you’re way smarter than everyone else because you look at all these different types of stats than other people and value defense so much unlike all us other idiots, but YOU STILL HAVE TO HIT THE DAMN BALL!
How’s this for irony – the best MLB player I can find in terms of comparable skillset is Adam Jones.
Gutierrez isn’t as valuable, but that’s the kind of player we’re talking about here. If you hated giving up AJ last year, well, we’re getting AJ’s skillset back.
If we actually get Chavez and Gutierrez, plus Heilman and Carp (as the current reports indicate), that is a quantum leap forward in OF defense. Put Gutierrez in LF, Chavez in CF, Ichiro in RF, and that is an outstanding defensive OF.
Not much hitting from the two new guys, but if the rotation’s good, you win with pitching and defense.
man, I’ve missed outfield defense.
I think the report is wrong and Chavez is going to Cleveland.
If so this becomes less awesome
Can’t imagine JJ is too happy about losing his closer job…..especially to KRod
That can’t be right, Cleveland got majorly screwed if Rosenthal’s report is correct. And to say Chavez for Reed is a wash is wrong, Chavez is better than Reed, defensively and speed wise.
I’m thinkin the report is wrong as well, but if it’s true, then I’m happy with the deal. I was only pissed if it was just Gutierrez who was the main guy coming, but having Chavez out there too makes it damn hard for anything to be falling in the gaps against us. I just wish we got rid of Yuni and signed Izturis, but I guess we’re stuck with that fat turd for another year.
I had the same thought Dave. Seems like the Tribe would need another defensive outfielder if they’re dealing Gutierrez.
Before they announced who was going where I thought Endy was headed to Cleveland, but several outlets are reporting he headed to here.. so we can hope for the best.
That stuff gets mixed up all the time. It wouldn’t make sense for Cleveland to trade Gutierrez for Valbuena and Joe Smith, even as much as I like Valbuena. They have to be getting Chavez back to make this work for them.
Wow, I’m glad we have Captain Obvious here to tell us about the value of offense. My god, to think that Zduriencik was this close to acquiring nothing but an entire all-glove, no bat team. And Dave would’ve been praising him all the way, with all those kooky statisithingies that make him sound so smart. But now, with one blinding post of enlightenment, we’ve been shown the error of our ways, and when Zduriencik picks up a bat we’ll know that comment made all the difference, and we can all fall at the feet of the guy who knows how to use ALL CAPS to sound really smart.
Five years ago, the Mariners decided that they needed more offense, so they got rid of their right-handed elite defender who struck out a lot and replaced him with a better hitter, because they were sure that they needed to score runs to win. Shipping off Mike Cameron and replacing him with Raul Ibanez was the beginning of the disaster that was the last five years.
This is the exact opposite of that. The new regime clearly recognizes the value of outfield defense, and is willing to give up a bit of offense to get a huge defensive gain.
This is what smart teams do.
So what’s Gutierrez best-case scenario? He turns into Jay Payton with slightly better defense and less patience?
Well, I guess his offensive approach of swing-at-anything, low-weight OBP, and disappointing production from a key offensive position (assuming he slots into either corner outfield spot) will be in line with the Mariners’ philosophy of the past few seasons. But at least the defense will be markedly improved.
Would Chavez really be starting?
An OF of Chavez/Gutierrez/Ichiro would be one of the best defensive outfields in baseball. On the flip side, it would be the worst offensive outfield in baseball.
Combine that with sketchy infield defensive unit (aside from Beltre) that doesn’t contain true offensive clout and please explain how this team is going to be good?
If this is a precursor to something more to come, I may change my view, but as it sits now, it looks pretty bad to me.
Done deal…
The Mariners give up Putz, Green, and Reed and get Heilman, Chavez, Carp, and Gutierrez.
Puckett just pimped the trade on KJR by reciting Gutierrez’ offensive stats.
Forgot to add link-
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081210&content_id=3712317&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym&partnerId=rss_nym
I just wish we got rid of Yuni and signed Izturis, but I guess we’re stuck with that fat turd for another year.
hahahahaha I love it. Now we have to see if Raul can whip him in to shape.
Anyways Gutierrez is a good pickup even if he doesn’t hit that well his defense makes up for it. And I can see the deal working for the Indians w/out Chavez because Gutierrez isn’t even a starter for them.
When you stop trying to acquire good players, and start trying to acquire players who are good at a certain thing, you make bad choices.
Does this not apply here? Gutierrez is, for all intents and purposes, a defensive specialist with limited offensive upside.
Sure, preventing runs is just as important as scoring them, but not more so, and this team can’t score runs.
I don’t think you are acknowledging that they are equal. Saving ten runs with the glove is just as good as ten with the bat.
Joser was joking that Z might build a no hit, all glove team as if it was bad just to make a point., but in all seriousness, if you had a team that could save 300 runs with the glove a year, but hit for 100 less, they would be just as good as an average fielding, 200 runs above average offensive team.
Yeah, but if the offense is 300 runs less, then it’s a wash. Though that STILL puts the advantage to the Mariners–younger, cheaper players.
Only scenario where it hurts is if the loss in the offense is larger than the gain in defense. Dave and other people think the gain in defense offsets the loss in offense. You can’t really disprove that by saying “you still got to score runs.” An anemic offense can still win if your pitching and defense makes the opposing offense even more anemic.
This still points up the rawness of defensive stats. People look at .750 and .800 OPS and feel comfortable with them. They look at the defensive stats and don’t feel comfortable–let alone looking at the resulting run differentials.
Looking back at this thread from the vantage of July ’09 with the team over .500 and so much of the success of the pitching staff so obviously owed to the outfield defense, some of these comments seem downright laughable. I don’t know where some of these commenters are (they don’t seem to be around now, at least under those names) but whereever they are I hope they’re big enough to admit that Dave was right and they were wrong. Gutierrez is an elite defender, and it matters. A lot. Oh, and his bat seems to coming along too.