Base reaction
I know this is unfair, but for all the random ill comments we tolerate, including the ones that drive me nuts (”The Mariner’s need…”) and for all the frustration that I share, every time I see a comment that says “I’m done with the team” or “I’m going to go cheer for some other team” or “See you next year” I have this urge to go delete that person’s account and go work something out on the server to block them from reading the site, with a reminder to pull it in 365 days. To support them in their effort, you know.
“Angry Face” by Piez, cc-licensed.
It’s horrible, but there it is. When I consider it, I feel silly — it’s like the team’s whacked me on the head with a 2×4 and I can’t do anything about it so I’m casting around for someone to take it out on.
But I also don’t feel that way at all. There’s something particularly annoying about these announce that they’re done, that being beat up by Texas was the intolerable final act. They’re like kids holding their breath for attention, trying to make the responsible party someone else (”I’m not cleaning my room until the M’s win three games in a row… it’s not my fault it’s a mess in here.”)
Yeah, that’s great, leaving the fan community when we’re all down and uncertain of the future. Thanks.
And I feel each time I read those that I’m being chastised for not having the good sense to abandon the team like the person jumping overboard. Which is both annoying and unsettling, because it goes to my essential fear that we are wasting our time being fans until wholesale changes are made, and that we should just… join them in abandoning?
But moreover, it angers me because it’s a fundamental misunderstanding of my fandom and the fandom of others.
Does anyone really think I follow the M’s because I have some choice? That I could tomorrow swap over to being a Rays fan (named one of the ten worst franchises on MSNBC yesterday!) or stop following baseball? I can’t. I’ve tried. I tried following other teams, way back pre-USSM, and it didn’t work. I follow the Giants in the NL, and my interest in them barely measures comparatively.
No, for whatever the reasons, and we’ve discussed them, if you cracked open my DNA they’re probably stamped with tiny little yellow trident logos.
So I’m a dupe, I’m a sucker, I’ve got the chalk hand outline in the center of my back where Chuck Armstrong marked me for future exploitation years and years ago. I saw horrible teams in the Kingdome, I saw great teams in Safeco, and I’ll be watching whatever crappy pitching matchup the M’s throw at me in September just as reliably as I tuned in for last night’s game.
I accept that. I’m not arguing it’s the smart decision, because it isn’t. And my constant “short-term realism, long-term faith” viewpoint doesn’t have a lot of support for it. But there’s no second MLB team in the Seattle metro area, and as much as I like and support them, the Rainiers and Aquasox just aren’t the same product.
I feel like if someone’s reaction to this particular stretch of darkness is to declare they’re giving up or going elsewhere, then that’s the end of the conversation. Go. Live your life frolicking in meadows of flowers and friendly bunnies. When the team’s competitive in 2012 or whenever, and you’re curious how they got from here to there, I’ll be happy to talk your ear off about it.
In the meantime, I’m as frustrated as anyone — I’m throwing towels up on the front page every couple hours, after all — but I still feel like if someone’s going to make a scene about giving up now, the least they could do as a courtesy to the rest of us is go quietly, and leave us to our misery and nursed hope. And that means, to circle back to the start of this whole thing, that I have no patience right now for repeated declarations of giving up, franchise swapping, and so on.
If you’re capable of it, best of luck to you, congratulations on your superior constitution or whatever.
If you’re not, at least confront your weakness, acknowledge it, and join me in knowing that fandom can be as much about suffering as success.
I think this one works, too.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:05 amWell said. I can’t quit on this team, I am holding on to the idea that this pain will make the pleasure that will someday come that much better. I love this team, and I will continue to watch. I have tickets to 9 more games, it is a 2 hour drive, and I will happily go every time even if I have to pay $5 a gallon for gas.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:06 amAmen. I haven’t had the heart to comment in ages (since the Jones/Bedard trade, I think), but I can’t stop caring.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:08 amGreat post. I grew up with the Mariners, and will probably die a Mariners fan. As much as I’d love to go and become an A’s fan, or an Indians fan or sometihng else, its not an option.
As insufferable as some of these games are, that’s just the way it is. I’m frustrated, and dissapointed, and a myriad of other things, but I can’t just go and stop being an M’s fan because of that. This is just the way it works. So, in the meantime, keep up the good work talking about the things we should be doing - it gives me hope that things could be better, even if they probably aren’t going to be.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:09 amI do try and confront my weakness, I acknowledge my absurd interest, and am always watching out the corner of my eye, even when I profess otherwise. I peak on my phone at the scores, I read USSM daily. I sometimes record a game. I just have a hard time explaining to my wife why I want to watch on TV, suffering through the oft insidious turns a game or the season takes.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:11 amI will occasionally have thoughts, whether I post them here or not, about giving up and following a team that is run in a more intelligent fashion.
Especially since I’m a relatively recent M’s fan in the overall scheme of things, having only been in Seattle since ‘99.
But I always come to my senses, eventually, and realize that I want to be able to say, once the team finally IS in better overall shape “yeah, I stuck with them through 2008″.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:11 amDerek,
Here Here!
A lot of times, I think that some of these guys believe that they’re getting on your good side by doting on Billy Beane or claiming that they are now “going to root for the A’s.”
May 9th, 2008 at 10:12 amI completely agree, DMZ. If one is psychologically capable of completely leaving one team and/or becoming a “fan” of another team, that person was never a “fan” of the previous team.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:13 amYeah, it’s like all those people who threaten to move to Canada whenever their fellow citizens elects a president they don’t like. I always offer to help (”There’s a consulate down across from the Westin, and I can give you some pointers on doing taxes in both countries…”) and suddenly they’re less interested. Frustration is understandable, and hyperbole is fine, but it gets tedious when it’s unimaginative and repetitive. (I suspect it’s a bit like the situation where someone has a name that lends itself to an obvious pun, and it just never occurs to people that maybe umpteen people before them thought of the same pun first.)
May 9th, 2008 at 10:16 amI’m with Derek. I root for the Mariners because they are the Mariners. If bad management and negligent ownership was enough to drive me away I wouldn’t have been a fan in the first place.
I grew up in the NY area and was a Mets fan as a child. They weren’t particularly well run either – they traded away their franchise player, first superstar and a first ballot hall of famer (Tom Seaver) for table scraps because he had the temerity to ask for more money in the mid-70s. Even with that I remained a Mets fan. I still root for the Mets, I still hate the Yankees and I still hate all things Boston (Red Sox, Celtics, Bruins, Patriots, etc.)
The Mariners grew on me but they are my team now, too. Lincoln, Armstrong, Bavasi and McLaren cannot take them away from me unless I let them.
I won’t send them as much of my discretionary income, mind you, but I will remain a fan, watch them on TV, and go to the occasional game at the park.
And I will continue to enjoy the first-rate analysis provided here at U.S.S. Mariner.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:17 amSo if I picked the brown towel from an earlier post is this considered me saying that “I’m done with the team”
If only the M’s were as consistant at the plate.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:18 amI may be frustrated and disappointed, but I’ve been watching since I was 5 in 1980. I’ve seen a lot of seasons like this. If I didn’t bail in the 80’s why would I now.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:19 amI’ll admit I’ve done that stupid crap from time to time too, despite being the same kind of sucker you described. Except in my case they’re the yellow drop-shadow S’s and not the tridents.
Being a Mariners fan is probably the best argument I can think of against free will.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:19 amI couldn’t even ditch them for the Diamondbacks. Despite watching them win a WS and rebuild much quicker than Seattle could dream of.
I fell in love with the M’s the first time I saw a game in the Kingdome. The fact that they weren’t good didn’t stop me then and it won’t cause me to give up on them now.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:19 amI too am getting tired of hearing the same old lines, but it was only a matter of time before we got to this point. The M’s stink. A lot. And the frustrations of the players, (like we saw last night with Big Richie blowing his top), is also mirrored by the frustration of the fans. So the, “I’m going to tell everyone in Blogland that I’m quitting on this team to make myself feel better” kind of posts become inevitable. You won’t find me making one of them though. I’ve followed this team through some pretty bad times, so their current antics don’t really drive me as crazy as some fans who are either too feint-of-heart to deal with the reality of Mariner suckiness or who have simply lost their patience.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:19 ambeautiful. i will root for the m’s until the day I die. Good or bad. Black or Blue. I’m with you, and never through.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:20 amAt the risk of sounding like a suck-up, too, I wouldn’t be as dedicated of a fan as I am if it wasn’t for USSM.
For two reasons:
-If I didn’t have a place to commisserate with others about why the hell Vidro is still our DH, etc, my frustration wouldn’t have anywhere else to go, and it’d eventually burn me out;
-The fact that there is all of the really high-level talk about what this team COULD do better makes me more optimistic than I otherwise would be for some eventual improvement. It might not be logical for me to be optimistic because of this, but I am anyway.
My thought is that in 2012 or so, we’ll be watching a Mariners team that is much more informed about how to make good choices than it is now, and that will lead to sustained success on the field.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:22 amWell said Derek… Love’m if they win or lose! Fair Weather kills me!
May 9th, 2008 at 10:23 amGreat post, couldn’t agree more.
What made the 95 run so special was suffering through all the lean years as a Mariner fan. I can remember being 6 years old in 1982 and watching games and becoming a fan. In high school my buddies and I would go to the Kingdome, buy an upper level seat and sneak down behind home plate. Those were the days when you could have any seat you wanted.
Then the M’s became good, made the playoffs and beat the Yankees which was unthinkable. I went to every playoff game that year and the one game playoff. It was special and all my years of telling my friends who jumped ship, that the M’s would be good one day, were all worth it.
I agree, we’re all frustrated but let’s not forget that before 1995, this franchise never had the money to keep players and had one winning season. Now, this team has a great ballpark, resources and some history of succcess.
I think the frustration is that all of fans know that this franchise could truly be something special if the right people are running it. I am not making any judgements on the current regime…either hoping they can get us there or if not, finding the right people to get us there.
This team will win again and hopefully in my lifetime, win a World Series.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:25 amI could no more denounce my Mariner fandom than I could denounce my own racist white grandmother. Unless the pace of losing increases and we actually get worse, at which point I will revisit the controversy and consider a stronger rebuke. Either way, I should have the nomination secured by the end of June at the latest.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:25 am17 - Jeff, honestly you have a good point and although there are a lot of sucks up the bottom line is: there is no other place on the web to find a great blend of realism, analysis, dark comedy, and dedication to our hometown 9.
I have been a very lost fan in the past, and only found out about the USSM Mariner this year and am very happy I’ve done so… although DMZ might disagree because I sometimes get too emotional and get my posts taken down for calling management, managers and players idiots or morons (I promise to work on this).
But you are right.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:25 amDMZ,
I think “us fans” negative reaction is acceptable - the organization is bad from top to bottom right now. We’re not a losing team in a rebuilding year, we’re not “a free agent or two away” from competing. We’ve got players who aren’t playing up to their talent level; we’ve got a coaching staff that spits out tired canards and don’t seem willing to recognize the “real issues”; and management/ownership that have demonstrated that as long as the money keeps flowing, there are no problems on the field.
Meanwhile, the fans get treated to some depressingly boring games. After the Sexson and McLaren incidents, now we’ve got guys on the team who are literally phoning it in.
In my opinion, there comes a time when you’ve got to burn the mother f—er down. Ultimately, it’s us fans who end up “taking it” if we don’t complain loudly and vociferously enough. Do you think the Yankees would have had the best teams over the past 100 years if the fans wouldn’t riot over a crappy team?
May 9th, 2008 at 10:29 amDespite how I’ve been feeling…I can’t stop rooting for those loveable losers. They’re OUR team. Speaking of until the day I die…if you’re not well, you should not be listening to the Mariners games on the radio this year. This is your last warning, Mariners Fan Listening to the ballgame.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:30 amI have a question with part of this essay: Is it acceptable for you or the other moderators to speculate what “the Mariner’s need” and unacceptable for readers of the blog, or did I misunderstand that comment?
May 9th, 2008 at 10:31 amIn my experience, fandom is mostly about suffering.
But we’re still here. We must like it.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:31 amI think you just expressed what us Cougars go through.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:31 amUnfortunately I will have to disagree and point to the ‘Likable Losers’ aka the Chicago Cubbies …
If you were to tell those fans who bitched their whole lives about the cubs — living a full life , then died without a WS — that complaining would bring them success then I just have to disagree.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:31 amMy point isn’t at all that you shouldn’t complain loudly and vociferously.
It’s that you shouldn’t quit. Criticize the team for their bad moves, the coaches for bad decisions — don’t throw up your hands and say “I give up, I’m going to go follow competitive tiddlywinks now instead.”
That’s all.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:33 amI’ve been a fan since I can remember, over 20 years, and I will be till the day I die…bandwagoners can go away and never come back…the team sucks right now…the management sucks…but they are OURS, and by God, I love the Ms!!!!!!!!!
May 9th, 2008 at 10:33 amI grew up a Tigers fan. I moved here in the early 80s when the team stank like a dung heap and actually decided it was time to switch when the M’s swept the Tigers at the Kingdome in 1984 to end the great 35-5 start. If I was going to live here, I was going to root, root, root for the home team. And I intend to as long as I’m alive.
But I excuse those who say they’re “through” with the team after a couple weeks like these; it’s like someone swearing they’ll never see that old girlfriend again, or they’re done with drinking or gambling. Only next week they’re back. Folks are entitled to blow off steam. Certainly, the 2008 version of the Mariners gives us all the right to blow off steam in our own way. Just like the 2004-06 Mariners, the 1998-99 Mariners, and the Mariners that were managed by Bill Plummer, Chuck Cottier and the rest of the amateur hour.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:34 amI hope that comments made by me in this manner have been seen as facetious as they were intended. M’s fan for life, through thick and thin.
It’s frustrating as all hell, but it will be all the sweeter when we finally are a contender again.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:35 amYou misunderstood the comment.
The annoying thing there was the “Mariner’s” thing. The apostrophe.
Also, I’m a little disappointed that your interpretation lept to us being a bunch of jerks.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:35 amWhen I feel the urge to give up on the Mariners, it comes accompanied with an urge to give up on sports, period. I did give up sports for a couple years, because I felt it stressed me out too much and encouraged the worst, most disputative and unreasonable aspects of my personality. I wasn’t able to get rid of it forever, I guess; too deeply ingrained, and there’s too much I love about sports.
This site — and this community, but mostly your writing, Derek, and Dave’s — is the main thing that has kept me emotionally connected to baseball, and my team. Thank you for that. In respect to your feelings, I can keep my feelings of despair about the future of the team to myself. I would never, at any rate, switch to another team.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:37 amDerek, you do a lot of statistical analysis on the good and bad around here - I’d be really interested to see a graph of the M’s daily post season odds superimposed on a graph of your web traffic. It seems like it gets busier around here as we get worse.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:38 amThat’s right, I’m the only jerk here!
May 9th, 2008 at 10:38 amThe psychology of the fan is so interesting. Where and how and why we align (re-align) ourselves with teams is fascinating. Why are some people (myself included) fanatically loyal to poorly run organization that sometimes actively extort or otherwise abuse them? How can some people (sometimes knowledgeable fans) drift from bandwagon to bandwagon while to others the very idea is anathema?
Anyone know any good reading on the subject?
May 9th, 2008 at 10:38 amI think you’re taking what folks say a little bit too seriously. You have to acknowledge that following this mediocre, boring, team is less fun than following a good one. I’ll always be an M’s fan, but this year, like last year, I’m going to be paying a little bit less attention to the M’s than I would if they were good, and to fill the void I’ll follow a few teams that I like: the Rays, DBacks and A’s, because they’re interesting (and kinda good). I might also hit a few more Aquasox or Rainiers games than I would in a season where the M’s were interesting.
I really think that’s what folks are saying. They aren’t really quitting permanently. There can’t be a lot of people who read USSM and post here who are true fair-weather fans. They’re just exasperated and, understandably, are looking for a way to watch baseball that isn’t so frustrating.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:40 amI’m not making any shrill denunciations.
What’s worse, and even more sad, is that game by game, year by year, I’m just a little less invested in the Mariners. I read less daily news coverage, catch fewer games on TV and radio, and attend fewer games in person. And, saddest of all, I find myself checking in on USS Mariner less often.
This isn’t the result of any conscious initiative. It just is. I have other things going on in my life, and I find myself now preferring to make more time for them. Of course, I’ve always had other things in my life, and always watched the Mariners before — going all the way back to 1977 when I was a 12-year-old on Bainbridge Island and discovered girls about the same time I gave myself over to baseball.
So what’s changed? It’s too easy to say that I’ve hopped off the Mariner bandwagon because the organization sucks. The organization sucked mightily from 1977 to 1993, and I went from high school to college to a marriage to deep into my journalism career in that time … and I was never more invested in the Mariners.
I don’t know how to put it other than to acknowledge the reality that we make time for what we WANT to make time for, no matter how busy we are. And I just don’t find myself wanting much to make time for the Mariners any longer. Call it erosion of faith, call it a slow crawl-away from the empty shell of a dead marriage, call it finally becoming an adult with more balanced priorities as I swim through my forties.
Or call it complacency in the face of even greater complacency.
I still love the Mariners. But I don’t much want to live with them anymore.
Will that change if everything about the Mariners change?
I just don’t know. There’s still enough love to make me want to say yes. But I just don’t know.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:44 am26-Nobody can understand what a Coug goes through or why they go through it. However, the premise here is correct, being a fan is what it is, not always even a decision that can be traced to any thing. Somebody starts a baseball team in Seattle and for no reason other than they are here, I watch Davey Collins, Diego Siegei, Enrici Romo to the current bunch and still hope they find a key…and can’t stop rooting. You don’t choose, it chooses you.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:46 amQuit? No. The M’s are my team and I’m stuck with them. I’ll still watch 50-60 games this year, get excited when they win, and play if only games when we lose. However, in a season like this I can put the team more on the back burner. Instead of watching the game, I’ll go out to the mountains to hike or go to a concert or something. It’s hard for me to sustain the ultra-intense effort in a season like this.
…of course, come a two game winning streak, I’ll be bamboozled again…
May 9th, 2008 at 10:46 amTruer words have yet to be sp..’, ‘blogged’. I agree. This team has some great fans. We deserve better. There is something about this team, the way it’s stitched into the fabric of this community and my life. Even when we’re horrible… It’s like some lovable oaf or crazy drunk of an uncle that can’t control himself. When we were good, we felt like we were part of it. I agree, I love baseball but want to watch the M’s. Right now is a particularly strange and infuriating time: the uncle and the oaf have merged into some totally bizarre creature that is still feels like family.
What bothers me is that I credit a small group of people at the organizational level that have hijacked our team. We all see it. I don’t blame Mac for pinch-hitting for ____ and don’t think it’s fair to claim that he’s the problem. This team is at the sort of low point that is seldom seen. We are simply horrible and frustrated. I mean, we just had a 6-8 1B charge a mound over a pitch that was a 1 away from hitting him, in a game that our pitcher hit 2 players. This episode is how we all feel, totally helplessly peeved and frustrated.
‘Losing is a disease’… sort of. I won’t abandon this team, feel a bit ill but still love this team.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:47 amI can relate to everyone here…
I grew up in Colorado in the 70’s-80’s…there was NO team….the closest was KC, and I couldn’t root for George Brett
SO…when I was about 10, I picked the Atlanta Braves. Probably has NOTHING to do with thier record, as they were not very good then. I’ve ALWAYS been a Braves fan, and it has paid of in the recent past with the 14 years of playoffs….but the last couple of years have been tough.
That all being said, I’m a M’s fan since I moved here in ‘94. Just in time for the ‘95 miracle. I didn’t really become a “fan” until I went to a couple of games, and started getting into the American League way of things. The DH always seemed like cheating to me.
So, in this rough time, I still watch, still cheer when they make a good play, groan when they make errors (lots recently), and hope that they do better the next day.
Thanks to the USSM dudes for keeping the faith, and just like the Red Sox, it’ll happen….we just might have to wait a while.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:47 amAmen Derek!
Anyone who can abandon a team because of frustration I don’t think has the same idea of what it means to be a fan. The reason it is so frustrating is because I care so much.
Really, now that I think about it, all the things that can frustrate me the most in my life are the things I care about the most. My work, my family, my religion, and even my sports teams, all these have the ability to drive me crazy when they are making stupid decisions, but that is not the point, I don’t love any of them for how “well run” they are. I want the best for these things, that is why they drive me crazy, that is why I get upset when they don’t live up to that, but I will still continue to care for them and want the best for them.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:48 amand “my government” to that list too.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:48 amI don’t know that he’s taking it too seriously, I think he’s more pointing out that whether people are even being serious or not, it’s still repetitive, unoriginal, and ultimately annoying to see after a while.
Mariners fandom: From “We gotta love these guys!” to “We wish we knew how to quit you” in under ten years.
I remember going to a Boston Celtics blog after watching the draft lottery presentation, and thinking to myself, “My God, look at all these people who will ‘NEVAR WATCH TEH NBA AGAIN!!!!!11!!!’ because the lottery ball didn’t drop them the Durant pick. Now Durant and our team are possibly headed to OKC and Boston is probably headed to the NBA Finals. All those comments from their fans now look really stupid in retrospect, and I don’t wanna represent myself or Mariner fandom the same way. I’ll stick to talking about not giving the M’s any paying-fan money, I think.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:49 amThank you, Derek. As frustrating as the losing gets, and as clueless as the front office gets, I could never quit the Mariners. Blue and teal runs through my veins.
GO M’S!!!!
May 9th, 2008 at 10:52 amWe have survived George Argyros, the Kingdome, Kevin Mitchell, Bill Plummer, Heathcliff Slocumb, Edgar Bear Night, and three strikes. We will be here long after Chuck Armstrong, Bill Bavasi, and Jarrod Washburn.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:54 amI did say just yesterday on this blog that if it would help, Armstrong could burn my team apparel to help keep his precious women and children warm at the chilly “early” season games. I also said I wouldn’t make the 4hr drive to watch these games in person. While I’m obviously not going to burn my stuff, can you blame me for not wanting to pay gas/food/ticket prices to watch the team in it’s current funk slump? I’m no bandwagon jumper, I can’t quit this team either. I wouldn’t want to. I just don’t think I’ll go see a game until at very least the weather is warmer and maybe/hopefully the team is playing better. Regardless of the M’s place in the standings I am a fan.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:54 amWell said, Derek. There’s so much of this in the M’s blogosphere now - not just these ‘threats’ to quit the M’s, but all manner of hyperbole.
I think what I hate about is that I’ve got two options on how to evaluate claims like this:
1) The speaker is a fairweather fan who thought the team might be good this year.
2) The person doesn’t actually believe their claim.
Either way, why would I want to have a dialog with this person?
I hear you CCW - what they say probably isn’t true. So…what are we supposed to do with this? Reply with something equally overblown and false? Isn’t there enough of that in the rest of the interwebz?
May 9th, 2008 at 10:55 amGood post. I will always be an M’s fan. That’s just the way it is. However, what i do expect from a team with one of the highest payrolls is that they field a competitive team. I don’t claim to know what moves to make, trades, or whatever, and I don’t want to seem like a fairweather fan but it took the Mariners so long to get rid of their ‘joke of MLB’ status that to see them reverting to that, well, I just can’t watch.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:56 amYou know, I’d managed to forget this until now.
Thanks.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:58 amCall me an idiot. The Mariners are coming back……..Its time.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:04 amWell said, Derek. My feelings mirror that of your own. I cannot root for another club even if I tried. It is not the same. Since I was 5 years old in 1986 I have been in love with the M’s. Some of my greatest memories have been at Mariner games. It is a very tough time, and I feel better when I vent, but we can get through this together. Clutch our Edgars bears and squeeze tight.
Go get ‘em Papi Silva!!!
May 9th, 2008 at 11:13 amThe “I’m switching to the Rays” posts are just signs of frustration with the team that are said in the spur of the moment when the worst things happen. I wouldn’t read too much into it…
May 9th, 2008 at 11:15 amI’m with you Derek, but don’t you think they could at least fire Bavasi and McLaren for us? At least it would give us hope for the future, however fleeting.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:24 amWhen I was a kid, I was a fan of the M’s. I played little league and loved Mark Langston and Alvin Davis, among others (for some reason, I always liked Henry Cotto). I followed baseball, but I didn’t live and die by the games.
When I started reading Bill James and various stat books and started realy understanding the game more, the games and seasons all of a sudden took on a greater importance, and I’ve been stuck ever since.
This site is a great place where a community exists to foster educated fandom. This, to me, would seem to eliminate the possibility of fair-weather fans. Why would one care about BABIP or LD% or regression to the mean if one wasn’t really invested in the team? Why analyze and examine the team if losing is going to make the interest stop? Sure, analysis at a deeper level can lead to lowered expectations, but that doesn’t mean I want the M’s to win any less.
Thanks to Dave and Derek and all the mods!
May 9th, 2008 at 11:29 amI think the frustrating part about this season here is that people were just expecting a run of the middle team, not cellar dwellers. I am sure our disappointment is just as much as the casual fans’ who thought the Mariners were an actual first place team. We are M’s fans too, who don’t like to see the team implode either.
As far as switching teams, I can’t either. I invested too much time and was too proud of being an M’s fan, having an actual beautiful stadium and a fanbase who cared about the team (I used to be a Marlins fan way back when). I am just going to root for either a turn around or the young guys to have a good year. I am still going to watch, and I have invested too much time to just switch to the Rays, or be like everyone else and cheer for the Red Sox.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:29 am*Really* arrgh!
Can’t even get through my first comment without a spelling error. It must’ve been a tribute to Miguel Cairo’s great start with the M’s.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:33 amSeriously. If it were at all a matter of choice to follow another team, or not follow baseball at all, I like to think I’d have exercised that option long ago.
I wish I knew how to quit you, Mariners.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:33 amOh yeah everyone is clamoring to hit the guy who couldn’t hit water if he fell out of a boat! -Rangers Broadcasters last night on Richie Sexson
May 9th, 2008 at 11:34 amAlright, I have to chime in also.
I’ve been an M’s fan since 1986 and I have gone through the ups and the downs with this team. I am also a huge Seattle SuperSonics fan. Just remember, as bad as this team can be (at times) and as frustrating as they can be to watch, they are OUR TEAM. We don’t have to fear that a carpetbagging owner is going to sweep the M’s away and move them to the middle of nowhere.
I’m not saying that anyone needs to like or accept how the team is today. It’s well within your rights to complain about what they need to do or not do. But just remember, it could always be worse. You could be wondering each day whether you were going to lose the team altogether.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:36 amMariners are 14-22 and we cry “I hate you, you ruined our lives! I’m taking the kids and leaving.”
Then the Mariners go “Baby I can change, I’m sorry. I love you” and string together a 5 or 6 game winning streak. Suddenly everyone’s going to be like: “Oh this black-eye? You don’t understand, I…I fell down the stairs, officer. He loves me, really, he does!”
Needless to say this never ends well.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:40 amas long as we are venting, can I complain about the ones who get up my nose?
The ones who complain that while they are watching bad baseball they have to pay $30 for parking and $20 for food and $20 for beer and $70 for a ticket.
well, no, actually you don’t have to.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:41 amHow could we forget the immortal Bobby Ayala?
But you’re right…we’ll be here long after any of these disasters.
We’ll even be here long after the concession stands run out of Rally Fries!
May 9th, 2008 at 11:43 amHell, I can’t even give up on this season (not really give up on it) until the team is statistically out of it (read: no possible way to win even if playing 1.000 baseball and all other teams losing every game). Even then I’ll wrinkle my brow crunching the numbers trying to be sure the paper got it right when they reported the nail was officially in the coffin. Given this, I could never abandon the Mariners.
It helps, I think, to have grown up in the 80’s as a baseball fan, and being on the planet roughly the same number of years as the team. I felt like the franchise and I kind of grew up together, and I started to do pretty well for myself about the same time they did. I wasn’t a little kid getting no respect from bigger kids and adults anymore and the Mariners were winning. We had a nice symbiosis. Then, around the time I became a professional - able to afford things like MLB Extra Innings - the team starts to falter. Here I was, feeling like I was starting to make my way in the world and one of my best friends - let’s face it many of us spend more time “with” this team than we do with family or others - who was right there with me started taking heavy drugs, blowing me off, and hanging out with the guys who find it cool to live in a tent city close to the U.
I really feel like a guy who has no clue how to get his good buddy off crack, and is left talking to people who know him too about how sad it is and banging my head against the wall. But I’m not going to stop caring about the guy just because he’s got a death wish. Sometimes he even seems to try, even if it is in all the wrong ways. And when we hang out he still manages to be pretty cool sometimes (Go Felix!). Then he relapses.
What’s the equivalent to a good rehab program for a baseball franchise? Upper management change?
May 9th, 2008 at 11:46 amFantastic post. Derek said what I’d been longing to say for a long time to the “I’m through with this team” commenters (is that a word?). So I quit lurking and decided to pipe up.
I listened to the first Ms broadcast with a young Dave Niehaus on the play-by-play. Little did know it would be the beginning of an agonizing, lifelong illness for which there apparently is no cure.
After nearly 20 years of battling this disease with no real progress, it suddenly went into remission. In 1995 I felt fantastic. The doctors couldn’t figure out why, but in the summer of 1995 it seemed that the illness had just dried up. It was a minor miracle.
After only occasional, minor setbacks, I really hit my stride, healthwise. In 2001 I took up running and couldn’t stop. I started winning races, and I just kept winning. I got all the way to the national semifinals for my age group before I hit the wall and lost. It was a bitter defeat, but I’d never been in better shape in my life. Just call me Lance Armstrong!!
However, after that year I began a slow decline, gradual at first and then steeper and steeper. I thought I’d hit rock bottom in 2006 and 2007, but then came this spring. I’m feeling terrible, but I know I’ve just gotta keep fighting. It’s all I can do. Hopefully, with some luck and hard work I’ll go back into remission and maybe even get in good shape again. My goal is to win that national championship, and I’ll keep hoping and working toward it, even if it takes my entire life.
I have no choice.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:53 amA very good post, and many of the comments are well thought out. I will continue to follow the M’s because they are the home town team, and the USS Mariner and the many fine comments make this a team I want to continue to follow.
In some respects a terrible team is easier to follow because there is always speculation on who is coming, who is going, and what should the team be doing to change course.
However, my “fandom” has been done in by years of mediocrity. I no longer care whether the M’s do well or not.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:53 amI am just glad no one in Fort Collins, Colorado knows who the M’s are so I can wear my M’s gear and never catch any shit. You would think from growing up in Colorado I could stop being a Mariners fan. Not true, I did catch on with the Rockies run last year but when they lost I didn’t care. I haven’t been able to really follow the M’s till the last 2 years with MLB.tv and finding this blog. I will strap in for tonight’s game again and drink till I am optimistic. My only solace is that when the M’s finally win one it will be in the top 5 happiest moments of my life because I was with this franchise through the Weaver and HoRam starts, the 2.77 per 9 Run support for Felix, and the 2001 disappointment. Go M’s!!
May 9th, 2008 at 11:58 amI am going to be an Ms fan until I die, or they leave Seattle…and here is why-
I love them. I’ve grown up with them. They are like part of my family.
And here is the pay-off…think about how it will feel, I mean REALLY feel, if they ever win the World Series…I have NEVER had a team that I am a fan of win a World Championship…unless you count the Sonics when I was like two years old…
The release of emotions will be volcanic! It will be one of the greatest feelings we will ever feel.
I am a cross country coach and two years ago I coached my team to the California State Championships for the first time in my school’s fifty odd year history…and I cried a little as they made the announcement…all the hard work, time, dedication, etc. paid off…and it was AWESOME to see the kids so happy and proud…
Tears of joy are precious…think about how we will all WEEP when the Ms win it all…all this will be worth it…
At least that is what I tell myself every night…
May 9th, 2008 at 12:05 pm67: Probably just as well with the Rox, Ham — they’re off to about as bad of a start as the M’s are, anyway.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:08 pmI have tried to not follow the M’s for the past couple of days but it is not possible. Sure it is dissappointing but I cannot not call myself a Mariners Fan. Every morning I go to espn hoping they pulling out an exciting win (a win wpould do too but why not hope for something exciting that is headline worthy) Someday that will happen and my evening will get a little less gloomy (and what’s up with this year’s spring? Will it ever showup?)
May 9th, 2008 at 12:09 pmGood post. An advanced understanding of the game doesn’t equate with passionlessly making sarcastic remarks every time a player displays their humanity, or throwing your toys out on the ground when things start going wrong.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:13 pmI’ve not posted anything about giving up, or switching teams, but I confess I’ve thought about it. Think of all the found time I’d have! Think of the reduced stress in my life! I’d be happier, and easier to be around!
But I can’t do it, no matter how much I’d like to. To me, things have gone from “bad” to “cursed” in some diabolical way, likely by the baseball gods who’ve never forgiven the Ms for falling short of the 2001 WS, or maybe as payback for laughing at the Angels and their ambivalent fans when the M’s caught them in ‘95. I mean, even Felix has let us down 3 times in a row for crying out loud! Something’s not right, and I think it will be interesting (in some obscene way, most likely) when it’s corrected.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:13 pmI’m sorry, but I don’t understand how this post logically follows from two posts on throwing in the proverbial towel, or even the “5 days left” post from May 6th.
To be fair to your readers: If you don’t what “I quit” proclamations, then you shouldn’t prompt them.
“Quitting” here should also be qualified and parsed out. For example, I’ve quit going to games, because — as a consumer — that is about the only way I can feed back into the front office. Decreasing attendance does affect business and ostensibly the future of the team. Sure, I’ll continue to listen to the games or check the scores. Nevertheless, there’s some legitimacy to quitting on certain dimensions of a sports team, particularly those dimensions that generate revenue. Otherwise, you’re just a passive consumer and a romantic fan, who doesn’t hold businesspeople and baseball players accountable for their relationship with the public.
That said, while I’m no Yankees fan, I agree in part with fetish .
May 9th, 2008 at 12:14 pmscott19- The Rox are obviously easier to follow, but my heart has never been in that team. Can’t stop rooting for the M’s no matter how hard I try. The teams I had when I was a wee little guy just peeing in my bed will be my teams till I am an old wrinkly guy peeing in my bed.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:16 pmWhy does it have to be logical?
(assuming “want”)
Please understand that there’s a huge gulf between “the team’s not likely to contend” or “I’m hugely frustrated” and what I find so frustrating, which is the “I give up” sentiment.
I don’t see how being realistic about the short term should lead you to think we’re encouraging people to stop being fans.
So… no. I disagree.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:22 pmAlright. I’ll do it.
#52: Idiot.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:27 pmFandom is the American version of nationalism. We’re growing more homogeneous as a culture, with the development of different forms of media and corporate franchising. Sports fandom has become the average American’s source of local pride. It’s a bond which allows us to connect with each other, and that’s why the bandwagon fan is so contemptible.
At the same time, it’s that fan (and it’s this type of season) which defines the true fan. If there weren’t bad times, there wouldn’t be any meaning in our fandom; we’d care about the winning more than we cared about the team. Look at the Atlanta Braves. The truth is, paradoxically, that for the true fan the success of the team is relatively meaningless; the source for our pride is the pride itself, we’re fans for the sake of being a fan.
It’s the act of conjuring names like Floyd Bannister and Greg Briley, and getting a laugh from the next guy at the bar, that’s what makes the whole process worthwhile. USSM is a big part of that process. It allows us to be fans when we’re at work, or when we live in Colorado.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:27 pmASH-
Not to speak for Derek, but I believe that his frustrations were with people that are saying they will no longer be fans of the Mariners or are going to switch to another team because of this shitty season…
Throwing in the towel is fine and dandy…I have for this year…but the point is I’m still an Ms fan and always will be and am not flooding the site with “I will see you again when they win” posts…
May 9th, 2008 at 12:28 pmIt would be impossible for me to forsake this team. Being a Seattle native and about the same age as the franchise I grew up with them and supported them through far, far worse…Bill Plummer, Kevin Mitchell trade (initially excited), Omar Vizquel trade, et al.
I choose to believe that the people commenting that they are leaving Mariner Nation are just experiencing the frustration we are all feeling when we watch a poorly run franchise that chooses to waste its payroll on replacement level stiffs and fails predictably. They are going about it the wrong way but that is what fans do sometimes when they are frustrated.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:29 pmI’ll never stop rooting for the Mariners, but this year they just aren’t a fun team to watch. I still watch most games, and I still go to a fair share, but they just aren’t exciting. Bedard and Felix, when pitching well, are still amazing to watch. Aside from that, however, I find myself easily distracted at games, and turning off the broadcast after the seventh inning.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:29 pmI won’t stop rooting for the Ms, but if I had MLB extra innings I’m pretty sure I’d find myself tuning in to the most exciting pitching matchup rather than the Ms game.
81- I have the MLB package down here in Cali, and I watch EVERY game that isn’t blacked out…but like you, I get distracted way more often than not…I’ve gotten a lot of work done during the games this year…it’s like I have three hours of office time at home every night…
May 9th, 2008 at 12:33 pmI’ll never stop being for the M’s. After all, there is a mere 11 months until opening day 2009. I am firmly convinced next year is the year we go all the way!
May 9th, 2008 at 12:37 pmI’m out boys and girls…the bell just rang…kids are gone…and it’s time to have a few cold ones before the game…take care, have a great weekend, and don’t “give up” on the Ms…as they said sang last night at Annie, “The sun will come out tomorrow!”
Tomorrow meaning 2011…but I’ll still be a fan…
May 9th, 2008 at 12:45 pmApologies. I did mean, “If you don’t want ‘I quit’ proclamations…”
Per your response (i.e., “Please understand that there’s a huge gulf between ‘the team’s not likely to contend’ or ‘I’m hugely frustrated’ and what I find so frustrating, which is the ‘I give up” sentiment’), I would read throwing in the towel as the latter. It literally means, “I quit.” Sorry.
Sure, I suppose it’s true that your blog doesn’t have to be logical. Fair enough. Then you shouldn’t also expect “logical” responses from your readers. What you are ultimately asking your audience to do, through moves such as, “if someone’s going to make a scene about giving up now, the least they could do as a courtesy to the rest of us is go quietly,” is not comment if they don’t agree with your “short-term realism, long-term faith” perspective. That’s a real shame. It’s silencing a dedicated readership.
This is a brilliant blog, primarily because, as opposed to sanctioned forms, it provides a space for dissonance and conversation. As such, why deter feedback? If we have a bad, bad season ahead, then maybe we can all complain our way through it, quitting as we so choose? Quitting a team (on whatever level, in part or in whole) isn’t about being better than other fans; it’s about being a critical fan. And that’s what this blog does best. It’s also why I read it daily, even if I’ve quit going to Mariners games.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:48 pmI feel we’re still hung over from 2001. The baseball gods hate us for winning 116 games. We hate ourselves for the bad taste that the playoffs that year gave us. But we somehow became convinced us that winning was easy, achievable and expected. There are 30 teams and 29 flavors of Unbelievable Disappointment every year, and we’ve just completely lost sight of it. Things bad? Hells yeah. Neutron Bomb bad. But been to Kansas City recently? Or maybe here in Texas? Things are WORSE. Much worse. Like, baseball is an annual exercise in complete irrelevancy.
So I see Bavasi sitting at the poker table with all his chips in the middle. He think’s he’s got Ace-Ace as his hole cards. Turns out he’s got five-deuce. And the river card could read “you’re fired” but it doesn’t really matter - someone else is raking all our chips up and we’re being sent to the rail. Yeah, management failed us, and may not be worth staking for another hand. But managements fail all over baseball every year on dozens of decisions - maybe the trick is finding a team that minimizes failures.
There’s just huge cold kegs of negativity around this organization right now, owing to this “all-in” move that’s gone over like week-old warm beer, and I wonder if our mental survival strategy is just to punt, bring up the kids and become underdogs stripped of any pretense of contending. They’d certainly be more lovable. These guys are about as cuddly as dead whales. The team couldn’t handle the pressure of starting well - they might just perform better when there’s zero pressure (Mr. Sexson’s prime time) and we’ll be reduced to enjoying the game just for the sake of the game and not how our team figures in standings and the spotlight of every single move scrutinized. Sounds absurd, I know, but didn’t we all have to revert to that in the Kingdome days, anyway? (1995 excepted) It’s the only way to rationalize this season for me now that it’s semi-officially “over” and we’re tending toward thoughts of ‘09 (such as, anybody got a good payroll figure ex-Sexson, ex-Beltre (traded - hey, he’s our only valuable trading chip at this point), ex-Washburn, ex-Batista, ex-Vidro, ex-Wilkerson that we might be able to roll around in our heads for the off-season?) and what is the realistic tipping point where the benefit of running kids out there and giving them the chance to hit major league pitching outweighs the sham of trying to field a competitive team?
Yeah, Bavasi’s big play failed. The team’s a mental wreck. So is the fan base. Let’s face it, get over it, and recognize that 29 other clubs are also going to “fail” this year and we’ve got to pare the losses and keep the bits and pieces that might make the baseball elixir that works down the road. Everything else - every attack on Bavasi, every negative thought - is just a complete waste of energy and your life because nothing changes with your outbursts except you feel lousier. Try to enjoy each game for what it alone represents, because that’s all we’ve got for five months. Maybe you’ll feel better. I’ve got seats to the Seattle game here in Texas on Monday and I hope to just be able to simply enjoy the baseball game, maybe appreciate Ichiro, maybe have a hotdog (they’re fairly awful here in Texas, though) even though everything around the team is smoking ruins… stewing in the failure that is this season ain’t worth it.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:51 pmI tried to quit the M’s a couple of years ago. It was the offseason that they signed Everett who is a player I can’t stand. That for me was the final straw of a completely wretched offseason after a completely wretched year. I was sick of following a horrible team that was horribly run when I didn’t even like the players on the field.
I searched around for a team that was at least somewhat well run. I didn’t want a cellar dweller but it didn’t have to be a team at the top either. It couldn’t be anyone in the division and it absolutely couldn’t be the Yankees. The fan base had to not be obnoxious so that ruled out the Red Sox. I wanted there to be players I could root for. I settled on the Cards and Pujols. I tried following them that first year and did ok at it for a while. I checked box scores and read articles about the team. Then, somewhere along the way, they signed Spezio and I decided that no team was perfect and if I was going to invest of myself into an imperfect baseball team, it might as well be the M’s and I came home.
Now I wear my M’s jacket and M’s hat even when they are losing. I root for them and read USSM and LL every day. I do find that I don’t have the stomach to watch/listen to all of their games anymore because it just isn’t worth the heartburn. I make a point of seeing a Felix or Bedard start. I pay attention when certain players come to bat. I just have no expectation of them winning. I like Jim posted above have found that other life activities are simply more interesting to me right now.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:52 pmSo I’ve been looking for a sign as to when this crazy 08 mini-curse will end. I thought maybe Sexson’s crazed charge yesterday would be it. But, no. Then today, at my local Thai restaraunt for lunch today, guess what my take-out number was? 95. I’m just sayin’….
May 9th, 2008 at 1:06 pmFor me watching this team is like watching a gruesome car accident. You want to turn away but the morbid fascination overwhelms you.
I will always be a M’s fan, If I didn’t leave when Edwin Nunez was considered a front line starter Or Greg Briley was considered worthy of a 1st round selection, I’ll probably never leave.
Stark’s article on ESPN talking about the off season trades (he’s not too critical; but the Anonymous AL scout takes us to task fairly severely) He talks about the biggest additional Baltimore got was the change in atmosphere. Seattle has stagnated, a fresh perspective is needed in the entire organization.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:06 pmNice post, Derek. This team is exceedingly difficult to watch, but many of us, for better or worse, are stuck with the Mariners as the object of our obsession. Many blog authors would have simply said that “fair weather fans suck.” Thanks for putting it more eloquently and with better illustration of your points.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:10 pmNo, it metaphorically means “I quit.”
I think it’s clear that Derek is throwing in the towel on the season, not the team. To extend the metaphor, when the trainer throws in the towel, he is not saying he’ll never work for that boxer again.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:10 pmI, for one, will never quit on the team. I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again:
I’ve invested too much into this team over the last two decades to just quit on it when it hits a bad stretch.
I’ve also said that I will not watch any more games, live or televised, until they make some changes that I feel are necessary. I continue to stand by this. Will I root for the M’s to do well? Yes. Will I just sit by quietly while the FO continues to ignore the obvious problems this team has? No. I will send emails, and log-in to sites like this one, and do other such things that will possibly make my voice be heard. I feel that, as a long time fan, I have the right to voice my opinions and have them be heard.
But I will be a Mariners fan for life. That way, when the higher-ups do finally pull their heads out of their asses, and we finally win something, I can say that I stuck by this team through the good and the bad. That’ll be something to be proud of.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:12 pm[ot].
May 9th, 2008 at 1:21 pm*strangling noises*
May 9th, 2008 at 1:23 pm[ot]
May 9th, 2008 at 1:25 pm“I think it’s clear that Derek is throwing in the towel on the season, not the team. To extend the metaphor, when the trainer throws in the towel, he is not saying he’ll never work for that boxer again.”
We’re not analysing the word of God here, posting a picture of some towels can be taken any way you like.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:28 pmI honestly wish the suspension was longer. Seems to be the most reliable way to get him out of the lineup.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:28 pmThanks for the response, Scraps.
It means “I quit” regardless. Metaphors have figurative and literal meanings. Also, the towel never simply means “I’m frustrated.” If that were the case, then the boxer would get his face beat in, without support from the “frustrated” trainer/manager.
As a form of representing the player (or the boxer), the towel equals the end of something — the season, the fan’s dedication, the fan’s attendance, the team’s effort, and so on.
Point being: “Throwing in the towel on the season” is quitting. And from my perspective, it’s quitting on the team, too, if only in part. And that’s perfectly fine, if not smart. Again, there are degrees of quitting here, and, for critical fans, it’s crucial to understand the implications and trajectories of those various degrees.
As I said earlier, being critical is what this blog does best.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:29 pmI am still a Mariners fan, but it’s painful to watch them play right now. When I want to watch a baseball game for fun, or simply to enjoy the sport played well, I prefer to watch two teams that I have no real emotional investment in (or go downtown and watch the Beavers at PGE Park). Since I’m old, this usually means watching a couple of NL teams go at it, because I really like that kind of baseball. And because the AL games on television always involved the Yankees or the Red Sox.
Ordinarily, I can stick to M’s games, even when they’re not winning a lot of games, but when they play like a AA team on soporifics, it’s just too painful.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:30 pmThis is a lot to infer into a couple of pictures of towels.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:33 pmFandom is the American version of nationalism. We’re growing more homogeneous as a culture
I can see the “bread and circuses” element to it, but in the polarization of our politics I’m not so sure I agree about the becoming more homogeneous part.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:35 pmDoes it help you to know, DMZ, that I got a lot of laughs out of “moar pictures” yesterday? As far as I’m concerned, do whatever makes you feel good, even if it comes to slashing and burning USSM blog-posters who’ve given up for the 4th time this season (or whatever).
Personally, my irritation with the Mariners comes and goes…it looks like the irritation level is here to stay for a while, but I’m not inclined to give up on anything, let alone a team I’ve observed, rooted for, gritted my teeth over for so many years. Heck, I’ve been married 43+ years, why not hang in there with the M’s? Maybe I can outwait Chuck Armstrong and Howard Lincoln…
May 9th, 2008 at 1:37 pm[ot]
May 9th, 2008 at 1:39 pmash, you are working hard to represent Derek as saying something he clearly didn’t mean, because you wanted to paint him as hypocritical and you didn’t think it through. You were wrong. No shame in that, but when you’re wrong when accusing someone of hypocrisy, it would be decent to own up to it instead of engaging in a load of sophistry about things you can read into a metaphor if you really want to misread it.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:39 pmWhen the Mariners gave away my favorite player, Carlos Guillen, I was incensed and promised myself not to watch another game as long as Bavasi was GM (I know, I know, it wasn’t “really” his fault).
Still, night after night, I find myself watching the train wreck, all the while knowing nothing will change unless the team is sold, the entire front office removed, or both.
In a cruel coincidence, my beloved Cougs hired Bill Doba right around the same time the M’s hired Bill Bavasi. Despite the Cougars’ mediocrity under Doba, I steadfastly remained a rabid fan. I can’t explain the enormous relief and excitement I felt with the removal of Bill Doba (a great human being), and the hiring of Paul Wulff (a great human being and an exceptionally tough individual).
Having said the above, there is nothing wrong in admiring Billy Beane and the A’s…much as I hate them. How can a team in a publicly acknowledged “rebuilding” mode, rise to the top of ESPN’s power rankings? How can the M’s owners fail to recognize the obvious incompetence of their own front office, when compared with the continuing success of the financially strapped A’s?
Someday, this nightmare will end, and we will be rewarded with a competent GM and a new “refuse to lose” club. At this point, I would even take Pat Gillick back.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:40 pmUnless it is mathematically impossible, we can still make the playoffs. The season is long.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:40 pmThere’s a real knockdown argument for you. Okay: I say a bunch of towels means sunshine tomorrow, unless the towels are wet in which case they represent the decline of all that is good.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:41 pmP.S. I noticed The Ancient Mariner commented early in this blogthread. ‘Way back when he and I posted on the old mariners.com board in the late 1990s, there was this guy who badmouthed the team every other day and along with a couple of others, managed to polarize the message board to the point that it imploded. Most of us were thankful when he moved to Florida, but before he left, he left a final message, which the gist of was “ha, ha, the M’s will never amount to anything, you sad sacks. I’m going to adopt the Devil Rays, and they’ll win their division before the Mariners ever get back into the postseason again.”
Ha! That didn’t work out so well. I thought of the guy often during the 2001 season…
See, there’s a silver lining to every cloud!
May 9th, 2008 at 1:42 pmPat Gillick is a total slash and burn GM. Win now, who cares about tomorrow? Nah.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:44 pm[ot]
May 9th, 2008 at 1:47 pm[ot]
May 9th, 2008 at 1:48 pmDerek -
I was tipsy when I wrote that and just got done trying to explain to my girlfriend why the M’s traded tino after ‘95, and somehow let the big three go all in four years.
So yeah - I was frustrated.
But really, towels? Towels are somehow significantly less horrible than saying I want to root for a team that realizes they own a baseball team and not a damn video game?
I don’t get that.
But then again - I don’t have too.
We’re both fans. You’re not better than me and I’m no better than you.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:49 pmyou know, we also have to decide what to give Dave & Amy.
Candlesticks always make a nice gift, and maybe you could find out where she’s registered and maybe a place-setting or maybe a silverware pattern. Or towels.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:50 pmUGLY:
0-17 record when they fall behind by two runs or more. 23 straight innings without a run. One in their last 32 innings.
we’ve never had a comeback?
May 9th, 2008 at 1:54 pmI grew up as a Phillies fan and sometime in the early ’90s became enamored with the Mariners because of Edgar and Griffey and the win over the Yankees in ‘95 (I now live in the NY area). As the Phillies drifted out of any playoff hunts for the next decade, the Mariners became my favorite team, culminating in their playoff runs at the early part of this decade. I never stopped being a Phillies fan, and it pained me to watch them perform so poorly year after year while being run by horrible upper management and worse lower management. But I watched more Mariners games (on the MLB package) and cared more about them, which probably makes me a traitor in the eyes of “one team only until death” traditionalists, and I understand that. I also derived a lot of joy out of the Mariners for all those years, much like I had with the Phillies in the ’80s.
It’s reversed now, of course, and while I started the year watching both teams equally, I’m finding it more and more difficult to watch Mariners losses. But I won’t abandon the team, as I never abandoned the Phillies, no matter how bad management is or how long it will take them to get out of the cellar of the AL West. If your eye strays to other teams - the Rays or the Giants or whoever I’ve seen mentioned on this blog over the last few days - I think that’s fine. I already have a “backup” in place myself. But I would agree that “quitting” on the team is not necessary and is an overreaction.
I had 14 years between Phillies playoff appearances and I was still attending at least a half dozen games a year. It could be 14 years before the Mariners make the playoffs again (god I hope not), but I still went to see them in Yankee stadium last weekend (for $80 a ticket on the loge level, thank you Yankee bastards) and I will still attend when they come back next year. It’s tough to be a fan during the hard times, but if it is in your blood, it will never go away. Sadly, after all these years, the Mariners have infected my blood… one of the only teams in the sport to win less championships than the Phillies (1). But like Derek said, we don’t choose who we love.
Thanks for the blog, Derek and Dave. It does help me get through the hard times.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:55 pmegreenlaw9, I don’t imagine this post was directed at anyone in particular; “I quit, what smarter team should I follow” sort of posts happen all the time.
Heck, I’ve been guilty of them myself, in the past. I’m trying to do better!
May 9th, 2008 at 1:56 pm“Quitting a team (on whatever level, in part or in whole) isn’t about being better than other fans; it’s about being a critical fan.”
I think this is the heart of the disagreement, Ash. Quitting a team is NOT about being a critical fan. It is about ceasing to be a fan. Now, maybe the argument is that posters who say ‘Screw the M’s, I’m an A’s fan now’ are trying (and failing) to say, ‘I don’t think the M’s will win the pennant this year. The A’s have a better chance of reaching this goal,’ but that’s not how I read it. That’s clearly what Derek’s saying too - though I’m still a fan, we won’t win the pennant this year.
Do you see how clearly distinct that is from “I’m no longer a fan?” They’re not points on one continuum, they are, logically, two utterly different statements. You seem to be saying that believing the team won’t win is, at least in part, not being a fan anymore. That’s the part that I don’t understand.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:00 pmIS that what you’re saying? If so, why do you think this?
[ot]
May 9th, 2008 at 2:01 pmNice post, Derek. But the declarations of finality don’t really faze me because they seem to be the acid indigestion after game thread emotion. Invariably they show up the next day.
Your point about team loyalty as being beyond conscious desire is spot on. My father left Cleveland 60 years ago, and still bleeds Indian red.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:04 pmEasy, Scraps. I never called Derek a hypocrite. I just noted an apparent contradiction between the posts and asked that we strategically re-think the idea of “quitting.” Commenting on the contradiction between the posts is not calling Derek a hypocrite. Like I’ve said several times now, you can “quit” a team in different ways, some of which (e.g., decrease attendance at games) are productive and necessary, hence my reference to f